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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;And with your spirit&#8217;</title>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/11/and-with-your-spirit/#comment-20416</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is this a return to the tradition? As I understand it, this is only the second official translation of the Roman Rite into English. It may be a return to the Latin, and so tangentially a return to that tradition, but I think the idea that the admittedly new translation is not traditional has merit. It is as though the pumpkin pie a family had enjoyed at Thanksgiving dinner for 100 years was replaced one year by apple spice cake, which was itself replaced the next year by pumpkin cheesecake. Is pumpkin cheesecake a return to the traditional pumpkin dessert, or must we say this family is giving up on having a Thanksgiving dessert tradition?

I also don&#039;t think theologian-liturgists should shy away from unusual language. Christian theology (and therefore Christian liturgy) demands unique vocabulary for its unique notions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this a return to the tradition? As I understand it, this is only the second official translation of the Roman Rite into English. It may be a return to the Latin, and so tangentially a return to that tradition, but I think the idea that the admittedly new translation is not traditional has merit. It is as though the pumpkin pie a family had enjoyed at Thanksgiving dinner for 100 years was replaced one year by apple spice cake, which was itself replaced the next year by pumpkin cheesecake. Is pumpkin cheesecake a return to the traditional pumpkin dessert, or must we say this family is giving up on having a Thanksgiving dessert tradition?</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t think theologian-liturgists should shy away from unusual language. Christian theology (and therefore Christian liturgy) demands unique vocabulary for its unique notions.</p>
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		<title>By: David T. Koyzis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/11/and-with-your-spirit/#comment-20415</link>
		<dc:creator>David T. Koyzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11926#comment-20415</guid>
		<description>Quite true, RS, on the BCP. The very notion of reforming the liturgy meant that Luther, Cranmer and others could not just translate the old mass.

Here is another perspective on the reform of the reform by LaVonne Neff: &lt;a href=&quot;http://livelydust.blogspot.com/2011/11/revised-liturgy-medieval-words-modern.html?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=email&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LivelyDust+%28Lively+Dust%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The revised liturgy: medieval words, modern sexism&lt;/a&gt;. She is unenthusiastic, to say the least:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Catholics sometimes reproach Protestants for acting as if the Holy Spirit stopped working with the church in the first century, after the New Testament books were written. Tradition, Catholics maintain, is the Spirit&#039;s continuing work in the church. Even the Spirit, however, has a bad century now and then, or at least a bad continent. Apparently the words he inspired the Western European church to use in the 11th century were superior to those he inspired the American church to use in the 20th century. So now instead of simple words like &lt;em&gt;one in being&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;born&lt;/em&gt;, we&#039;re back to medieval words like &lt;em&gt;consubstantial&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;incarnate&lt;/em&gt;; and instead of affirming our faith as part of the believing community (&quot;We believe in one God ...&quot;), we&#039;re back to medieval individualism (&quot;I believe in one God&quot;); and along with with our guilt-ridden medieval ancestors we can strike our breasts and confess that we have sinned &quot;through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
A return to the tradition will be experienced as a repudiation of tradition by many people. I think she&#039;s right on such Latin-derived words as &lt;em&gt;consubstantial&lt;/em&gt;, which no one nowadays understands. It rather reminds me of the English Standard Version&#039;s use of &lt;em&gt;propitiation&lt;/em&gt; instead of the Revised Standard Version&#039;s &lt;em&gt;expiation&lt;/em&gt;, neither of which speak at all clearly to contemporary readers. Such &quot;improvements&quot; are questionable at best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite true, RS, on the BCP. The very notion of reforming the liturgy meant that Luther, Cranmer and others could not just translate the old mass.</p>
<p>Here is another perspective on the reform of the reform by LaVonne Neff: <a href="http://livelydust.blogspot.com/2011/11/revised-liturgy-medieval-words-modern.html?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=email&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LivelyDust+%28Lively+Dust%29" rel="nofollow">The revised liturgy: medieval words, modern sexism</a>. She is unenthusiastic, to say the least:</p>
<blockquote><p>Catholics sometimes reproach Protestants for acting as if the Holy Spirit stopped working with the church in the first century, after the New Testament books were written. Tradition, Catholics maintain, is the Spirit&#8217;s continuing work in the church. Even the Spirit, however, has a bad century now and then, or at least a bad continent. Apparently the words he inspired the Western European church to use in the 11th century were superior to those he inspired the American church to use in the 20th century. So now instead of simple words like <em>one in being</em> and <em>born</em>, we&#8217;re back to medieval words like <em>consubstantial</em> and <em>incarnate</em>; and instead of affirming our faith as part of the believing community (&#8220;We believe in one God &#8230;&#8221;), we&#8217;re back to medieval individualism (&#8220;I believe in one God&#8221;); and along with with our guilt-ridden medieval ancestors we can strike our breasts and confess that we have sinned &#8220;through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>A return to the tradition will be experienced as a repudiation of tradition by many people. I think she&#8217;s right on such Latin-derived words as <em>consubstantial</em>, which no one nowadays understands. It rather reminds me of the English Standard Version&#8217;s use of <em>propitiation</em> instead of the Revised Standard Version&#8217;s <em>expiation</em>, neither of which speak at all clearly to contemporary readers. Such &#8220;improvements&#8221; are questionable at best.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/11/and-with-your-spirit/#comment-20413</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 23:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11926#comment-20413</guid>
		<description>As a 1928 Prayer Book Anglican, &quot;And with thy spirit&quot; isn&#039;t new to me. It&#039;s the way things have been since 1549.

Nor do I think &quot;accuracy&quot; is a consideration for today&#039;s Anglicans and Lutherans. No longer are our liturgies solely translations and rearrangements of older liturgies in Latin and vernacular languages. I don&#039;t think the Book of Common Prayer ever was just a translation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a 1928 Prayer Book Anglican, &#8220;And with thy spirit&#8221; isn&#8217;t new to me. It&#8217;s the way things have been since 1549.</p>
<p>Nor do I think &#8220;accuracy&#8221; is a consideration for today&#8217;s Anglicans and Lutherans. No longer are our liturgies solely translations and rearrangements of older liturgies in Latin and vernacular languages. I don&#8217;t think the Book of Common Prayer ever was just a translation.</p>
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		<title>By: Revising the Mass and the Ecumenical Protestant Liturgy &#124; Mitchell Lewis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/11/and-with-your-spirit/#comment-20411</link>
		<dc:creator>Revising the Mass and the Ecumenical Protestant Liturgy &#124; Mitchell Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Koyzis at First Things comments on the recent changes in the Catholic mass. Last weekend, the Catholic Church adopted an English translation of its liturgical texts that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Koyzis at First Things comments on the recent changes in the Catholic mass. Last weekend, the Catholic Church adopted an English translation of its liturgical texts that [...]</p>
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