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	<title>Comments on: Liberalism. . . and liberalism</title>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-20044</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-20044</guid>
		<description>The problem with liberalism reminds me of what strikes me as a similar problem with capitalism: that if the people who do it are left unchecked, they become so powerful that they turn into the antithesis of what they claim to believe.

Free markets needs to be guarded in order to stay free - otherwise the first few to make money will spend that money cutting down rivals and gaining a monopoly.

In the same way, &quot;liberalism&quot; - or &quot;liberal democracy&quot; - appears to have started out being about freedom, including freedom of religion - but now the people who embrace those ideas want to make them into a religion - one so rigid it allows no room to think or feel anything but what you&#039;re told to think or feel, which isn&#039;t very &quot;liberal&quot;.

Of course, these words get thrown around so much - and misused, and appropriated - that it can be hard to know who means what by anything. But there is a noticeable disconnect between the people who today use the word &quot;liberal&quot; vs. what the word has meant in the past.

There is no such thing as a &quot;neutral&quot; structure - a perfectly poised equilibrium (would that be median or mean?) is not stable and will not last. Both groups will seek to appropriate and &quot;own&quot; the &quot;neutral&quot; structure, defining norms in their own language.

Healthy,  properly functioning checks and balances - not a supposedly &quot;neutral structure&quot; - are what prevents excess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with liberalism reminds me of what strikes me as a similar problem with capitalism: that if the people who do it are left unchecked, they become so powerful that they turn into the antithesis of what they claim to believe.</p>
<p>Free markets needs to be guarded in order to stay free &#8211; otherwise the first few to make money will spend that money cutting down rivals and gaining a monopoly.</p>
<p>In the same way, &#8220;liberalism&#8221; &#8211; or &#8220;liberal democracy&#8221; &#8211; appears to have started out being about freedom, including freedom of religion &#8211; but now the people who embrace those ideas want to make them into a religion &#8211; one so rigid it allows no room to think or feel anything but what you&#8217;re told to think or feel, which isn&#8217;t very &#8220;liberal&#8221;.</p>
<p>Of course, these words get thrown around so much &#8211; and misused, and appropriated &#8211; that it can be hard to know who means what by anything. But there is a noticeable disconnect between the people who today use the word &#8220;liberal&#8221; vs. what the word has meant in the past.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as a &#8220;neutral&#8221; structure &#8211; a perfectly poised equilibrium (would that be median or mean?) is not stable and will not last. Both groups will seek to appropriate and &#8220;own&#8221; the &#8220;neutral&#8221; structure, defining norms in their own language.</p>
<p>Healthy,  properly functioning checks and balances &#8211; not a supposedly &#8220;neutral structure&#8221; &#8211; are what prevents excess.</p>
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		<title>By: David T. Koyzis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19998</link>
		<dc:creator>David T. Koyzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 13:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19998</guid>
		<description>I wholeheartedly agree with your concern, Albert. I myself tend to avoid the term &lt;i&gt;liberal&lt;/i&gt; as a modifier of &lt;i&gt;democracy&lt;/i&gt; precisely because of the reductionist connotations of liberal&lt;i&gt;ism&lt;/i&gt; as a &quot;directional&quot; ideology. However, and perhaps this is Will Katerberg&#039;s point, the fact that citizens vote for their legislators in a democratic framework might be seen to imply a contractarian account of the origins of political authority, in which case democratic institutions are intrinsically liberal, even in the ideological sense of the word. Although I think there is something to this historically speaking, if we assume instead that citizens share political authority with their rulers and that this authority is God-given, then this rules out the potentially arbitrary implications of the social contract.

I am nearing the end of a book project on authority, office and the &lt;i&gt;imago Dei&lt;/i&gt; in which I reflect on these issues in more detail and at greater length. I&#039;ll let everyone know when it&#039;s published.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wholeheartedly agree with your concern, Albert. I myself tend to avoid the term <i>liberal</i> as a modifier of <i>democracy</i> precisely because of the reductionist connotations of liberal<i>ism</i> as a &#8220;directional&#8221; ideology. However, and perhaps this is Will Katerberg&#8217;s point, the fact that citizens vote for their legislators in a democratic framework might be seen to imply a contractarian account of the origins of political authority, in which case democratic institutions are intrinsically liberal, even in the ideological sense of the word. Although I think there is something to this historically speaking, if we assume instead that citizens share political authority with their rulers and that this authority is God-given, then this rules out the potentially arbitrary implications of the social contract.</p>
<p>I am nearing the end of a book project on authority, office and the <i>imago Dei</i> in which I reflect on these issues in more detail and at greater length. I&#8217;ll let everyone know when it&#8217;s published.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19981</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19981</guid>
		<description>I think it is true that in theory the two meanings are distinguishable.  But it is my impression (and perhaps only my impression) that articulating a &quot;structural&quot; meaning of liberalism tends to portray structures as not always and already presupposing and embodying some ideology (or ideas to be less pejorative), instead being a ideologically neutral structure that is then animated in a certain direction (to use Bavinck&#039;s term) by a distinct ideology.

This may seem like an academic point, but it is practically important because the marginalization of religious discourse rests on this assumption that there are such neutral structures that by virtue of their structural necessity eventually require the marginalization of non-neutral religious modes of life.  The US Supreme Court has and will be deciding cases that rely on such an assumption, e.g. whether a church can discriminate against state-determined protected classes of citizens (Hosanna-Tabor Church v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission).

My concern is along those lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is true that in theory the two meanings are distinguishable.  But it is my impression (and perhaps only my impression) that articulating a &#8220;structural&#8221; meaning of liberalism tends to portray structures as not always and already presupposing and embodying some ideology (or ideas to be less pejorative), instead being a ideologically neutral structure that is then animated in a certain direction (to use Bavinck&#8217;s term) by a distinct ideology.</p>
<p>This may seem like an academic point, but it is practically important because the marginalization of religious discourse rests on this assumption that there are such neutral structures that by virtue of their structural necessity eventually require the marginalization of non-neutral religious modes of life.  The US Supreme Court has and will be deciding cases that rely on such an assumption, e.g. whether a church can discriminate against state-determined protected classes of citizens (Hosanna-Tabor Church v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission).</p>
<p>My concern is along those lines.</p>
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		<title>By: The World Wide (Religious) Web for Wednesday, October 5, 2011 &#171; GeorgePWood.com</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19967</link>
		<dc:creator>The World Wide (Religious) Web for Wednesday, October 5, 2011 &#171; GeorgePWood.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19967</guid>
		<description>[...] IMPORTANCE OF DEFINING YOUR TERMS: “Liberalism…and liberalism.” I am increasingly persuaded that the contemporary debate over liberalism has been hampered by the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] IMPORTANCE OF DEFINING YOUR TERMS: “Liberalism…and liberalism.” I am increasingly persuaded that the contemporary debate over liberalism has been hampered by the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David T. Koyzis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19958</link>
		<dc:creator>David T. Koyzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19958</guid>
		<description>Will, you might wish to read Jonathan Chaplin&#039;s excellent article, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.csreview.org/XXXV2/chaplin/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rejecting Neutrality, Respecting Diversity: From “Liberal Pluralism” to “Christian Pluralism”&lt;/a&gt;, which addresses some of the issues you raise above.

In the meantime I think you assume unduly that pluralist democracy necessarily assumes a contractarian account of political obligation. The marriage issue is, of course, subject to another interpretation than the one you give above. To grant the state the normative competence to alter the definition of marriage presupposes a particular &quot;thick&quot; account of justice leaning heavily towards a liberal individualism, which is itself highly contestable in a pluralistic society.

By contrast, many would argue that, in a democracy limited by constitutional constraints, the majority -- or even an especially loud or entrenched minority -- does not have the authority to alter a nonstate community such as marriage through the political apparatus. If I understand your point above, I think you would respond to this argument by observing that the majority is thereby imposing its definition of marriage on everyone else, including dissenting minorities. But this can hardly be avoided. The issue, as I see it, is &lt;i&gt;whether such imposition can be a just imposition&lt;/i&gt;, to which I believe a positive answer must be given if we are to maintain a common legal framework binding on all.

To do justice to marriage as an institution requires some general agreement on its meaning. Otherwise it becomes an empty category whose content is entirely malleable. A lot of mischief has been and will continue to be done by those attempting to fill the definitional vacuum while claiming neutrality with respect to norms for marriage. A pluralistic democracy cannot simply be a jural free-for-all but must be grounded on certain basic principles, as Walter Lippmann and many others have understood. I am not convinced that the social contract is adequate in this respect. In fact, I think that over the long term it is fundamentally incompatible with the rule of law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, you might wish to read Jonathan Chaplin&#8217;s excellent article, <a href="http://www.csreview.org/XXXV2/chaplin/" rel="nofollow">Rejecting Neutrality, Respecting Diversity: From “Liberal Pluralism” to “Christian Pluralism”</a>, which addresses some of the issues you raise above.</p>
<p>In the meantime I think you assume unduly that pluralist democracy necessarily assumes a contractarian account of political obligation. The marriage issue is, of course, subject to another interpretation than the one you give above. To grant the state the normative competence to alter the definition of marriage presupposes a particular &#8220;thick&#8221; account of justice leaning heavily towards a liberal individualism, which is itself highly contestable in a pluralistic society.</p>
<p>By contrast, many would argue that, in a democracy limited by constitutional constraints, the majority &#8212; or even an especially loud or entrenched minority &#8212; does not have the authority to alter a nonstate community such as marriage through the political apparatus. If I understand your point above, I think you would respond to this argument by observing that the majority is thereby imposing its definition of marriage on everyone else, including dissenting minorities. But this can hardly be avoided. The issue, as I see it, is <i>whether such imposition can be a just imposition</i>, to which I believe a positive answer must be given if we are to maintain a common legal framework binding on all.</p>
<p>To do justice to marriage as an institution requires some general agreement on its meaning. Otherwise it becomes an empty category whose content is entirely malleable. A lot of mischief has been and will continue to be done by those attempting to fill the definitional vacuum while claiming neutrality with respect to norms for marriage. A pluralistic democracy cannot simply be a jural free-for-all but must be grounded on certain basic principles, as Walter Lippmann and many others have understood. I am not convinced that the social contract is adequate in this respect. In fact, I think that over the long term it is fundamentally incompatible with the rule of law.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Katerberg</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19953</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Katerberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19953</guid>
		<description>The distinction you make can also be thought of as the difference between a majoritarian form of democracy, where minority rights are limited, perhaps ignored, and a liberal or pluralist democracy where minority and individual rights are protected against the demands of the majority. I&#039;m not sure the distinction you want between the two kinds of liberalism can work. A liberal democracy, as I used the term, and as seems to fit with what you want needs to take a contractual view of institutions rather than a normative one, otherwise it ends up imposing a majority&#039;s view on minorities, in the way you suggested is tyrannical. Gay marriage is precisely an appropriate example, both in the question of whether one group gets to impose it&#039;s definition on minorities, the majority claiming it&#039;s view of normativity, and so in the appropriateness of a contractual understanding of society that leaves room for a variety of social and moral communities with relative independence from both the state and the dominant communities in society. Much the same argument could be made against, say, French efforts to suppress religious practices in public life, whether the wearing of. A crucifix or a headscarf.

It seems to me that the normative distinctions you want for certain kinds of communities are incompatible with room you want in society for minority rights, including religious minorities. For such a community, their church is no mere voluntary institution, but the state needs to treat them that way, lest it privilege certain kinds of groups over others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The distinction you make can also be thought of as the difference between a majoritarian form of democracy, where minority rights are limited, perhaps ignored, and a liberal or pluralist democracy where minority and individual rights are protected against the demands of the majority. I&#8217;m not sure the distinction you want between the two kinds of liberalism can work. A liberal democracy, as I used the term, and as seems to fit with what you want needs to take a contractual view of institutions rather than a normative one, otherwise it ends up imposing a majority&#8217;s view on minorities, in the way you suggested is tyrannical. Gay marriage is precisely an appropriate example, both in the question of whether one group gets to impose it&#8217;s definition on minorities, the majority claiming it&#8217;s view of normativity, and so in the appropriateness of a contractual understanding of society that leaves room for a variety of social and moral communities with relative independence from both the state and the dominant communities in society. Much the same argument could be made against, say, French efforts to suppress religious practices in public life, whether the wearing of. A crucifix or a headscarf.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the normative distinctions you want for certain kinds of communities are incompatible with room you want in society for minority rights, including religious minorities. For such a community, their church is no mere voluntary institution, but the state needs to treat them that way, lest it privilege certain kinds of groups over others.</p>
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		<title>By: David T. Koyzis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19949</link>
		<dc:creator>David T. Koyzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19949</guid>
		<description>They are connected in the way in which other concrete institutions are connected to ideologies, e.g., common ownership and socialism. Liberalism is not wrong to note that many communities are indeed voluntary associations, including dance troupes, birdwatching societies and the like. The fundamental historical error of liberalism as an ideology is to try to stretch the category of voluntary associations to cover the state, church marriage and family, which are intrinsically different.

Something similar can be said of socialism. Common ownership is a reality of human life. Corporate and individual agents alike can be said to own property. The error of socialism is to assume that a single form of communal ownership can supplant all the others, squeezing out the huge variety of individual and corporate owning agents.

The problem with the current debate on liberalism or socialism is that few people seem to make this basic distinction. The Dutch Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck and philosopher D. Vollenhoven spoke of the distinction between structure (e.g., democratic institutions) and direction (e.g., liberalism as an ideology), which is relevant here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are connected in the way in which other concrete institutions are connected to ideologies, e.g., common ownership and socialism. Liberalism is not wrong to note that many communities are indeed voluntary associations, including dance troupes, birdwatching societies and the like. The fundamental historical error of liberalism as an ideology is to try to stretch the category of voluntary associations to cover the state, church marriage and family, which are intrinsically different.</p>
<p>Something similar can be said of socialism. Common ownership is a reality of human life. Corporate and individual agents alike can be said to own property. The error of socialism is to assume that a single form of communal ownership can supplant all the others, squeezing out the huge variety of individual and corporate owning agents.</p>
<p>The problem with the current debate on liberalism or socialism is that few people seem to make this basic distinction. The Dutch Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck and philosopher D. Vollenhoven spoke of the distinction between structure (e.g., democratic institutions) and direction (e.g., liberalism as an ideology), which is relevant here.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19942</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 20:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19942</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t the two meanings of liberalism organically connected, especially historically?  

If one added the creation of a privatized &lt;i&gt;religio&lt;/i&gt; and church to the first meaning of liberalism, the connection between the two would become particularly evident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t the two meanings of liberalism organically connected, especially historically?  </p>
<p>If one added the creation of a privatized <i>religio</i> and church to the first meaning of liberalism, the connection between the two would become particularly evident.</p>
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		<title>By: David T. Koyzis</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19939</link>
		<dc:creator>David T. Koyzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19939</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Brian. I look forward to receiving my copy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Brian. I look forward to receiving my copy.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Dijkema</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/liberalism-and-liberalism/#comment-19936</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Dijkema</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11691#comment-19936</guid>
		<description>Nicholas Wolterstorff reviews Volf&#039;s book in this fall&#039;s print edition of Comment, David. You might want to have a look.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas Wolterstorff reviews Volf&#8217;s book in this fall&#8217;s print edition of Comment, David. You might want to have a look.</p>
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