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	<title>Comments on: Does religious freedom exclude evangelism?</title>
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		<title>By: Livingston Dell</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/does-religious-freedom-exclude-evangelism/#comment-20165</link>
		<dc:creator>Livingston Dell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2011 04:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11744#comment-20165</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; &quot;For example, a secular materialist might believe that human beings have value or “human dignity” and deserve to be protected by law because they attained rationality (of some kind) through evolution. But this philosophical belief is ultimately religious in nature; it cannot be proven, it is about ultimate value, people disagree with it (for example: Why should rationality ground dignity–privileging the smart–rather than emotional capacity–privileging the emphathic?), etc. etc. : the same objections to supernatural religious belief apply to civil/pagan/natural religious belief.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

As a whole, I agree with this. I suppose my question was more geared toward

&lt;i&gt; &quot;These are important questions, especially if societies violently enforce a particular, necessarily religious conception of religious freedom on its members and other nations.&quot; &lt;/i&gt;

That raised in my mind the inquiry :&quot;violent enforcement in Canada?&quot; So I that&#039;s why I was wondering if you were speaking on a larger scale.

Thank you for clarifying though!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> &#8220;For example, a secular materialist might believe that human beings have value or “human dignity” and deserve to be protected by law because they attained rationality (of some kind) through evolution. But this philosophical belief is ultimately religious in nature; it cannot be proven, it is about ultimate value, people disagree with it (for example: Why should rationality ground dignity–privileging the smart–rather than emotional capacity–privileging the emphathic?), etc. etc. : the same objections to supernatural religious belief apply to civil/pagan/natural religious belief.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>As a whole, I agree with this. I suppose my question was more geared toward</p>
<p><i> &#8220;These are important questions, especially if societies violently enforce a particular, necessarily religious conception of religious freedom on its members and other nations.&#8221; </i></p>
<p>That raised in my mind the inquiry :&#8221;violent enforcement in Canada?&#8221; So I that&#8217;s why I was wondering if you were speaking on a larger scale.</p>
<p>Thank you for clarifying though!</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/does-religious-freedom-exclude-evangelism/#comment-20159</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11744#comment-20159</guid>
		<description>Mr. Dell: every country, since every country has a particular conception of freedom, justice, etc. that is ultimately religious in character and which is enforced through laws.  

What is necessary to understand is that when people generally hear &quot;religious&quot; they think &quot;supernatural religion&quot; rather than &quot;beliefs about value, life, death, ultimate things&quot; which can and have historically taken the form of civil religion or pagan/natural religion.  But there is no valid philosophical reason that justifies a double standard that discriminates against supernatural religion in favor of civil or pagan/natural religions.  

For example, a secular materialist might believe that human beings have value or &quot;human dignity&quot; and deserve to be protected by law because they attained rationality (of some kind) through evolution.  But this philosophical belief is ultimately religious in nature; it cannot be proven, it is about ultimate value, people disagree with it (for example: Why should rationality ground dignity--privileging the smart--rather than emotional capacity--privileging the emphathic?), etc. etc. : the same objections to supernatural religious belief apply to civil/pagan/natural religious belief. 

So, every polity presupposes some religious understanding of political order (including what constitutes religious freedom) and enforces laws (e.g. concerning religious freedom) by the coercive power of the State.

Canada is no exception.

The sooner we understand this truth, the sooner we can actually understand the religious presuppositions underlying our political order and determine whether they are good or not.  Otherwise, we&#039;re just fooling ourselves about the real foundations of political order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Dell: every country, since every country has a particular conception of freedom, justice, etc. that is ultimately religious in character and which is enforced through laws.  </p>
<p>What is necessary to understand is that when people generally hear &#8220;religious&#8221; they think &#8220;supernatural religion&#8221; rather than &#8220;beliefs about value, life, death, ultimate things&#8221; which can and have historically taken the form of civil religion or pagan/natural religion.  But there is no valid philosophical reason that justifies a double standard that discriminates against supernatural religion in favor of civil or pagan/natural religions.  </p>
<p>For example, a secular materialist might believe that human beings have value or &#8220;human dignity&#8221; and deserve to be protected by law because they attained rationality (of some kind) through evolution.  But this philosophical belief is ultimately religious in nature; it cannot be proven, it is about ultimate value, people disagree with it (for example: Why should rationality ground dignity&#8211;privileging the smart&#8211;rather than emotional capacity&#8211;privileging the emphathic?), etc. etc. : the same objections to supernatural religious belief apply to civil/pagan/natural religious belief. </p>
<p>So, every polity presupposes some religious understanding of political order (including what constitutes religious freedom) and enforces laws (e.g. concerning religious freedom) by the coercive power of the State.</p>
<p>Canada is no exception.</p>
<p>The sooner we understand this truth, the sooner we can actually understand the religious presuppositions underlying our political order and determine whether they are good or not.  Otherwise, we&#8217;re just fooling ourselves about the real foundations of political order.</p>
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		<title>By: Livingston Dell</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/does-religious-freedom-exclude-evangelism/#comment-20143</link>
		<dc:creator>Livingston Dell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11744#comment-20143</guid>
		<description>Albert,
Are you speaking in terms of Canada or other countries?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Albert,<br />
Are you speaking in terms of Canada or other countries?</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/does-religious-freedom-exclude-evangelism/#comment-20142</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11744#comment-20142</guid>
		<description>I agree with the article&#039;s conclusions, though I wonder whether its author appreciates how the answer will depend on the religious assumptions embedded in a particular version of &quot;religious freedom,&quot; including the role of the State, the role of violence in society, what a human is, what freedom means, what constitutes a religion, etc.

These are important questions, especially if societies violently enforce a particular, necessarily religious conception of religious freedom on its members and other nations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the article&#8217;s conclusions, though I wonder whether its author appreciates how the answer will depend on the religious assumptions embedded in a particular version of &#8220;religious freedom,&#8221; including the role of the State, the role of violence in society, what a human is, what freedom means, what constitutes a religion, etc.</p>
<p>These are important questions, especially if societies violently enforce a particular, necessarily religious conception of religious freedom on its members and other nations.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/10/does-religious-freedom-exclude-evangelism/#comment-20043</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11744#comment-20043</guid>
		<description>Humanists and Enlightenment secularists believe you should have the right to believe whatever you want - &lt;i&gt;as long as nothing you believe interferes with what &lt;/i&gt;they&lt;i&gt; believe &lt;/i&gt;to be true, good, right, and proper.

Atheists apparently see no contradiction in declaring for themselves the right to try to persuade you (and your children) of what they believe - by any means, fair or foul - while simultaneously insisting that their ideological rivals have no right to argue in public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humanists and Enlightenment secularists believe you should have the right to believe whatever you want &#8211; <i>as long as nothing you believe interferes with what </i>they<i> believe </i>to be true, good, right, and proper.</p>
<p>Atheists apparently see no contradiction in declaring for themselves the right to try to persuade you (and your children) of what they believe &#8211; by any means, fair or foul &#8211; while simultaneously insisting that their ideological rivals have no right to argue in public.</p>
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