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	<title>Comments on: The Moral Landscape (a review)</title>
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		<title>By: BillT</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-19018</link>
		<dc:creator>BillT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-19018</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;It seems that his argument could be summarized like this:
[1] Good and evil depend on the experience of conscious minds. 
[2] Conscious minds are natural phenomena. 
[3]Therefore, good and evil can be understood through science.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

And the problem with this is that if all morality is is the &quot;experience of conscious minds&quot; then why should I care about it.  A &quot;morality&quot; that doesn&#039;t create an obligation to adhere to its precepts isn&#039;t morality.  It&#039;s simply some natural hard wiring of our brains that has no authority over me or anyone else.  The idea that experiance or evolution or any natural process can explain morality is very mistaken.  It doesn&#039;t explain morality, it explains it away.  Natural processes create instincts not obligations.  I&#039;m as free to ignore this kind of &quot;morality&quot; as I am to ignore any other instinct I choose.  That certainly isn&#039;t morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;It seems that his argument could be summarized like this:<br />
[1] Good and evil depend on the experience of conscious minds.<br />
[2] Conscious minds are natural phenomena.<br />
[3]Therefore, good and evil can be understood through science.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>And the problem with this is that if all morality is is the &#8220;experience of conscious minds&#8221; then why should I care about it.  A &#8220;morality&#8221; that doesn&#8217;t create an obligation to adhere to its precepts isn&#8217;t morality.  It&#8217;s simply some natural hard wiring of our brains that has no authority over me or anyone else.  The idea that experiance or evolution or any natural process can explain morality is very mistaken.  It doesn&#8217;t explain morality, it explains it away.  Natural processes create instincts not obligations.  I&#8217;m as free to ignore this kind of &#8220;morality&#8221; as I am to ignore any other instinct I choose.  That certainly isn&#8217;t morality.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18955</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18955</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Hypothetical or not, truth does not becomes any less true when applied to the real world.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

My point is that outrageous hypotheticals don&#039;t happen in the real world. I&#039;m not against using examples to try to outline a philosophical problem, but if the hypothetical is absurd then it fails to give real life ground (the whole point of an example) to the issue being addressed.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;If this event were to happen, which is could, it would mean that utilitarianism is false.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Even though I think utilitarianism is utterly false, I don&#039;t think I can logically accept that proposition. One example does not prove an entire philosophy wrong. One example is usually indicative of a larger series of problems; the example itself does not condemn the entire philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Hypothetical or not, truth does not becomes any less true when applied to the real world.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>My point is that outrageous hypotheticals don&#8217;t happen in the real world. I&#8217;m not against using examples to try to outline a philosophical problem, but if the hypothetical is absurd then it fails to give real life ground (the whole point of an example) to the issue being addressed.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;If this event were to happen, which is could, it would mean that utilitarianism is false.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Even though I think utilitarianism is utterly false, I don&#8217;t think I can logically accept that proposition. One example does not prove an entire philosophy wrong. One example is usually indicative of a larger series of problems; the example itself does not condemn the entire philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Livingston Dell</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18953</link>
		<dc:creator>Livingston Dell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 07:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18953</guid>
		<description>Nikolai,
The purpose of the absurd hypothetical is to isolate the moral principles to test their truth. Hypothetical or not, truth does not becomes any less true when applied to the real world. I&#039;m sure there are plenty of other arguments that may be even better than the absurd hypothetical, but I think that the hypothetical A. Isn&#039;t absurd B. Has it&#039;s own validity. It doesn&#039;t matter if the event NEVER happens, the fact remains that the event IS POSSIBLE and therefore regards actuality in truth. 

If this event were to happen, which is could, it would mean that utilitarianism is false. Therefore, in actual events in real life, utilitarianism is a false and flawed worldview because it cannot address problems that could occur. 

I understand that it is less compelling to the average Joe the plumber, but I think that in an intellectual sense, the Room 306 scenario disproves Utilitarianism regardless of the likelihood of the event. 

Truth is truth, regardless of it&#039;s &quot;force&quot;. Truth remains to be true regardless of how compelling it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nikolai,<br />
The purpose of the absurd hypothetical is to isolate the moral principles to test their truth. Hypothetical or not, truth does not becomes any less true when applied to the real world. I&#8217;m sure there are plenty of other arguments that may be even better than the absurd hypothetical, but I think that the hypothetical A. Isn&#8217;t absurd B. Has it&#8217;s own validity. It doesn&#8217;t matter if the event NEVER happens, the fact remains that the event IS POSSIBLE and therefore regards actuality in truth. </p>
<p>If this event were to happen, which is could, it would mean that utilitarianism is false. Therefore, in actual events in real life, utilitarianism is a false and flawed worldview because it cannot address problems that could occur. </p>
<p>I understand that it is less compelling to the average Joe the plumber, but I think that in an intellectual sense, the Room 306 scenario disproves Utilitarianism regardless of the likelihood of the event. </p>
<p>Truth is truth, regardless of it&#8217;s &#8220;force&#8221;. Truth remains to be true regardless of how compelling it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18952</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 07:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18952</guid>
		<description>The problem with absurd hypotheticals such as this one is that the power of their claim is contingent on such an event occurring in the real world. If an argument trying to point out the real world implications of a bad moral philosophy uses implications that rarely, if ever, happen, then the argument loses its power. Utilitarianism can be defeated on the grounds that it is question-begging, not that it sets up outrageous moral decisions that never actually happen. 

In effect, the person advancing the hypothetical is saying, &quot;This is why utilitarianism is bad! If this happened, then the loss of life and the degredation of life would be catastrophic!&quot; But, if such a situation doesn&#039;t happen, then the argument loses its force. The point of a situational analysis such as the Room 306 scenario is to show what how principles play out in the real world, not abstractly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with absurd hypotheticals such as this one is that the power of their claim is contingent on such an event occurring in the real world. If an argument trying to point out the real world implications of a bad moral philosophy uses implications that rarely, if ever, happen, then the argument loses its power. Utilitarianism can be defeated on the grounds that it is question-begging, not that it sets up outrageous moral decisions that never actually happen. </p>
<p>In effect, the person advancing the hypothetical is saying, &#8220;This is why utilitarianism is bad! If this happened, then the loss of life and the degredation of life would be catastrophic!&#8221; But, if such a situation doesn&#8217;t happen, then the argument loses its force. The point of a situational analysis such as the Room 306 scenario is to show what how principles play out in the real world, not abstractly.</p>
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		<title>By: Livingston Dell</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18950</link>
		<dc:creator>Livingston Dell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18950</guid>
		<description>Nikolai, 
I think that the likelihood of a certain moral dilemma doesn&#039;t affect the truthfulness or falsehood of the moral principles at stake. 

First, even if the likelihood of the &quot;Room 306&quot; scenario is small, it is still theoretically possible. A lot of moral and philosophical reasoning deals in theoreticals. IT IS POSSIBLE for this scenario to present itself, therefore it is a valid argument. 

It would be a different story if the theoretical presented some kind of element that invalidated the principles at stake, but this scenario is possible. Even with low odds, if this scenario presented itself (which it could) then the likelihood of the scenario wouldn&#039;t really matter would it? Although these hypothetical scenarios don&#039;t serve well as day-to-day guides, they do serve as a good way to access moral analysis and isolate the moral principles at work, which is the purpose of the &quot;Room 306&quot; scenario. 

I would argue that likelihoods would not prove this argument wrong especially since IT IS possible. Low odds or not, it can become a reality and is therefore a moral dilemma that is valid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nikolai,<br />
I think that the likelihood of a certain moral dilemma doesn&#8217;t affect the truthfulness or falsehood of the moral principles at stake. </p>
<p>First, even if the likelihood of the &#8220;Room 306&#8243; scenario is small, it is still theoretically possible. A lot of moral and philosophical reasoning deals in theoreticals. IT IS POSSIBLE for this scenario to present itself, therefore it is a valid argument. </p>
<p>It would be a different story if the theoretical presented some kind of element that invalidated the principles at stake, but this scenario is possible. Even with low odds, if this scenario presented itself (which it could) then the likelihood of the scenario wouldn&#8217;t really matter would it? Although these hypothetical scenarios don&#8217;t serve well as day-to-day guides, they do serve as a good way to access moral analysis and isolate the moral principles at work, which is the purpose of the &#8220;Room 306&#8243; scenario. </p>
<p>I would argue that likelihoods would not prove this argument wrong especially since IT IS possible. Low odds or not, it can become a reality and is therefore a moral dilemma that is valid.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18947</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18947</guid>
		<description>Scratch that, the odds of FIVE, not three people, is even more crazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scratch that, the odds of FIVE, not three people, is even more crazy.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18946</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18946</guid>
		<description>Orthodoxdj,

The odds of three transplant patients having the exact blood comparability, especially since all of the transplant patients are getting different transplants, is astronomical. The odds of there being one patient with perfect compatability for all three patients is even more infinitessimal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orthodoxdj,</p>
<p>The odds of three transplant patients having the exact blood comparability, especially since all of the transplant patients are getting different transplants, is astronomical. The odds of there being one patient with perfect compatability for all three patients is even more infinitessimal.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18944</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18944</guid>
		<description>What has logic got to do with anything.  People do not make decisions that way at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has logic got to do with anything.  People do not make decisions that way at all.</p>
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		<title>By: The World Wide (Religious) Web for Monday, July 18, 2011 &#171; GeorgePWood.com</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18943</link>
		<dc:creator>The World Wide (Religious) Web for Monday, July 18, 2011 &#171; GeorgePWood.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18943</guid>
		<description>[...] out Adam Omelianchuk’s review of The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, who argues that “science can determine human values” better than religion. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] out Adam Omelianchuk’s review of The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, who argues that “science can determine human values” better than religion. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Orthodoxdj</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18940</link>
		<dc:creator>Orthodoxdj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 09:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18940</guid>
		<description>Nikolai,

What don&#039;t you like about the scenario?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nikolai,</p>
<p>What don&#8217;t you like about the scenario?</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18939</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 08:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18939</guid>
		<description>While utilitarianism is an awful theory, I think that absurd hypothetical scenarios such as the &quot;Room 306&quot; casuistry, while certainly attention-grabbing, do little to prove the rightness or wrongness of any theory. Such was the primary folly, for instance, with Judith Thomson&#039;s defense of abortion in her now-famous essay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While utilitarianism is an awful theory, I think that absurd hypothetical scenarios such as the &#8220;Room 306&#8243; casuistry, while certainly attention-grabbing, do little to prove the rightness or wrongness of any theory. Such was the primary folly, for instance, with Judith Thomson&#8217;s defense of abortion in her now-famous essay.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/07/the-moral-landscape-a-review/#comment-18938</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 00:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9557#comment-18938</guid>
		<description>In THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS, biologist H. Allen Orr, reviews Harris&#039;s THE MORAL LANDSCAPE, and makes some excellent points. Here&#039;s the link:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/12/science-right-and-wrong/?pagination=false</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS, biologist H. Allen Orr, reviews Harris&#8217;s THE MORAL LANDSCAPE, and makes some excellent points. Here&#8217;s the link:<a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/12/science-right-and-wrong/?pagination=false" rel="nofollow">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/12/science-right-and-wrong/?pagination=false</a></p>
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