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	<title>Comments on: The Morality of Christian Exclusivism (Part Three)</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18741</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18741</guid>
		<description>Oh.  Sorry.  A premature rendering of the verdict.  I tipped my hand too early.  Darn!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh.  Sorry.  A premature rendering of the verdict.  I tipped my hand too early.  Darn!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18739</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18739</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;@TUAD:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The Morality of Christian Exclusivism
Verdict: Moral.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, no, no, wait. Tom&#039;s got part 4 coming. Kudo&#039;s to Tom for parts 1, 2, &amp; 3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>@TUAD:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The Morality of Christian Exclusivism<br />
Verdict: Moral.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, no, no, wait. Tom&#8217;s got part 4 coming. Kudo&#8217;s to Tom for parts 1, 2, &amp; 3.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18737</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18737</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;The Morality of Christian Exclusivism&lt;/b&gt;

Verdict:  Moral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>The Morality of Christian Exclusivism</b></p>
<p>Verdict:  Moral.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18704</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18704</guid>
		<description>Hi TUAD,
That&#039;s a matter for another or former? debate or thread I think, and in this discussion here am only contrasting the historic Christian position that we were &lt;i&gt;created&lt;/i&gt; by an omnipotent, all-wise, infinite personal Creator in contradistinction to a no-God, impersonal and blind chance origin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi TUAD,<br />
That&#8217;s a matter for another or former? debate or thread I think, and in this discussion here am only contrasting the historic Christian position that we were <i>created</i> by an omnipotent, all-wise, infinite personal Creator in contradistinction to a no-God, impersonal and blind chance origin.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18703</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18703</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;The exclusivity of Judeo-Christianity also entails the core belief that we were created by an omnipotent, all-wise, and infinite personal Creator, and not ginned up out of a chance and impersonal universe.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Shall we rebuke theistic evolutionists as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The exclusivity of Judeo-Christianity also entails the core belief that we were created by an omnipotent, all-wise, and infinite personal Creator, and not ginned up out of a chance and impersonal universe.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Shall we rebuke theistic evolutionists as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18702</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18702</guid>
		<description>Tom,
Yes, thanks. It is not my purposeful intention to cherry pick your writings. We agree on many, many things, and share in a bond of fellowship as Christian brothers. You have agreed that we should tell the &lt;i&gt;whole&lt;/i&gt; story. I think that story starts with Creation is what I&#039;m driving at I think. The exclusivity of Judeo-Christianity also entails the core belief that we were &lt;i&gt;created&lt;/i&gt; by an omnipotent, all-wise, and infinite personal Creator, and not ginned up out of a chance and impersonal universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,<br />
Yes, thanks. It is not my purposeful intention to cherry pick your writings. We agree on many, many things, and share in a bond of fellowship as Christian brothers. You have agreed that we should tell the <i>whole</i> story. I think that story starts with Creation is what I&#8217;m driving at I think. The exclusivity of Judeo-Christianity also entails the core belief that we were <i>created</i> by an omnipotent, all-wise, and infinite personal Creator, and not ginned up out of a chance and impersonal universe.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18699</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18699</guid>
		<description>Steve,

First, I mentioned the image of God here. I thought that implied that we were created by God.

Second, this is not something that I think needs hammering out for these purposes. It was parenthetical to the point of this article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>First, I mentioned the image of God here. I thought that implied that we were created by God.</p>
<p>Second, this is not something that I think needs hammering out for these purposes. It was parenthetical to the point of this article.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18698</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18698</guid>
		<description>Tom,
So man as &lt;i&gt;fallen man&lt;/i&gt;, but not man as &lt;i&gt;created man&lt;/i&gt;? I guess I&#039;m not sure which &quot;as you have said about one of them in particular&quot;, is the &#039;one&#039; that I have rightly said something about. I realize we disagree on the &#039;how&#039; of creation in Gen. 1, but I don&#039;t think you&#039;re saying that man was not &#039;created&#039; are you? And if created, then he doesn&#039;t own himself, but must rightly deal with this Creator-creature distinction? I personally think this is very important for all mankind to know. His finiteness, his inability to know everything there is to know about everything, even collectively, and thus of necessity to realize, if he is honest with himself, to seek and submit in his autonomy to this Infinite Creator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,<br />
So man as <i>fallen man</i>, but not man as <i>created man</i>? I guess I&#8217;m not sure which &#8220;as you have said about one of them in particular&#8221;, is the &#8216;one&#8217; that I have rightly said something about. I realize we disagree on the &#8216;how&#8217; of creation in Gen. 1, but I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re saying that man was not &#8216;created&#8217; are you? And if created, then he doesn&#8217;t own himself, but must rightly deal with this Creator-creature distinction? I personally think this is very important for all mankind to know. His finiteness, his inability to know everything there is to know about everything, even collectively, and thus of necessity to realize, if he is honest with himself, to seek and submit in his autonomy to this Infinite Creator.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18697</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18697</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I agree, the Fall could be added to the list. It&#039;s hard to know what to include or not to include. The three I listed are unique to Christianity, whereas much of what we know about who God is, the creation, man in the image of God, etc. is in Judaism as well. That doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;re not all core to Christianity, as you have rightly said about one of them in particular. 

We certainly need to tell the whole story, I agree with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I agree, the Fall could be added to the list. It&#8217;s hard to know what to include or not to include. The three I listed are unique to Christianity, whereas much of what we know about who God is, the creation, man in the image of God, etc. is in Judaism as well. That doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;re not all core to Christianity, as you have rightly said about one of them in particular. </p>
<p>We certainly need to tell the whole story, I agree with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18696</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18696</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Tom Gilson:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;There are three core beliefs above all others in Christianity: the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Can the Incarnation, Crucifixion, &amp; Resurrection make any sense if you don&#039;t have Gen. 3: the Fall of man, and the promised Seed to come? Can they make any sense if the skeptic doesn&#039;t understand why he needs the God-man, Savior, and Redeemer to die in his place? Why he needs to be &lt;i&gt;saved&lt;/i&gt; in the first place?

Can Gen. 3 and the fall of man from grace make any sense if you don&#039;t have Gen. 1 and God as Creator of man and all things? An understanding of man and his position in this created order?

Christianity is a system that claims to be the &#039;only&#039; system to make sense of all reality and man as he finds himself. To claim that &#039;there are three core beliefs above all others in Christianity&#039;, is insufficient in my view, and misses the &lt;i&gt;core&lt;/i&gt; of why the God-man had to come, die horribly on a cross, and be resurrected as conquering death in the first place. The morality of Christian exclusivism entails more than the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection and we should be telling the &lt;i&gt;whole&lt;/i&gt; story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Tom Gilson:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>There are three core beliefs above all others in Christianity: the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection.</p></blockquote>
<p>Can the Incarnation, Crucifixion, &amp; Resurrection make any sense if you don&#8217;t have Gen. 3: the Fall of man, and the promised Seed to come? Can they make any sense if the skeptic doesn&#8217;t understand why he needs the God-man, Savior, and Redeemer to die in his place? Why he needs to be <i>saved</i> in the first place?</p>
<p>Can Gen. 3 and the fall of man from grace make any sense if you don&#8217;t have Gen. 1 and God as Creator of man and all things? An understanding of man and his position in this created order?</p>
<p>Christianity is a system that claims to be the &#8216;only&#8217; system to make sense of all reality and man as he finds himself. To claim that &#8216;there are three core beliefs above all others in Christianity&#8217;, is insufficient in my view, and misses the <i>core</i> of why the God-man had to come, die horribly on a cross, and be resurrected as conquering death in the first place. The morality of Christian exclusivism entails more than the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection and we should be telling the <i>whole</i> story.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18695</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18695</guid>
		<description>To the mind of one who does believe, the Cross is not just plain crazy, but a spectacularly awesome demonstration of how much God loves me, and how much God hates sin, all sin including mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the mind of one who does believe, the Cross is not just plain crazy, but a spectacularly awesome demonstration of how much God loves me, and how much God hates sin, all sin including mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18694</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18694</guid>
		<description>Jacob,

I agree: there is a problem associated with &quot;convincing the unbelievers that one exclusivist belief system is the Truth over the claims of other exclusivist belief systems.&quot; (But that&#039;s not the problem I&#039;ve been writing about in this series.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,</p>
<p>I agree: there is a problem associated with &#8220;convincing the unbelievers that one exclusivist belief system is the Truth over the claims of other exclusivist belief systems.&#8221; (But that&#8217;s not the problem I&#8217;ve been writing about in this series.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18693</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18693</guid>
		<description>Tom says: 

&quot;First let’s think for a few moments about religious inclusivism. Here’s how the prevailing idea goes: no religion has primacy over any other. The different faiths are just different paths up the same mountain. We are all blind men trying to understand an elephant. We all have equal though different pieces of the one truth.&quot;

Sure that is the standard inclusivist or liberal theological position. In some ways, though, it misses the point of the debate today. 

What if the different paths are different paths up all together different mountains? Buddhism is not Christianity and they are, ultimately, different.

There are multiple exclusive paths existing at once in today&#039;s world. And so, the question has to be asked: Why choose one exclusive path over another and why stay committed to it over time? Showing the value of one exclusive belief system in a nonarrogant way is the central problem that many missionaries face today.  

To be sure, this is *not* the stereotypical view that anything goes and everything is equal-- the dreaded relativism. Rather, these different faiths are genuinely different. They entail different values systems, origin stories, eschatologies, call on their believers to conduct their selves in different ways, etc. It is never possible to just do or say whatever one wants; there are concrete possibilities. Convincing the unbelievers that one exclusivist belief system is the Truth over the claims of other exclusivist belief systems is the concrete problem--not so much the inclusivist liberalism that so many fear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom says: </p>
<p>&#8220;First let’s think for a few moments about religious inclusivism. Here’s how the prevailing idea goes: no religion has primacy over any other. The different faiths are just different paths up the same mountain. We are all blind men trying to understand an elephant. We all have equal though different pieces of the one truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure that is the standard inclusivist or liberal theological position. In some ways, though, it misses the point of the debate today. </p>
<p>What if the different paths are different paths up all together different mountains? Buddhism is not Christianity and they are, ultimately, different.</p>
<p>There are multiple exclusive paths existing at once in today&#8217;s world. And so, the question has to be asked: Why choose one exclusive path over another and why stay committed to it over time? Showing the value of one exclusive belief system in a nonarrogant way is the central problem that many missionaries face today.  </p>
<p>To be sure, this is *not* the stereotypical view that anything goes and everything is equal&#8211; the dreaded relativism. Rather, these different faiths are genuinely different. They entail different values systems, origin stories, eschatologies, call on their believers to conduct their selves in different ways, etc. It is never possible to just do or say whatever one wants; there are concrete possibilities. Convincing the unbelievers that one exclusivist belief system is the Truth over the claims of other exclusivist belief systems is the concrete problem&#8211;not so much the inclusivist liberalism that so many fear.</p>
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		<title>By: odgie</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18692</link>
		<dc:creator>odgie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18692</guid>
		<description>@Chuck,

Do you have an original or coherent thought to share? If so, it would be great if you would get to it. Your dismissive (and unsupported) ramblings have brought absolutely nothing to any discussion you have weighed in on.

You wrote, &quot;The Cross does not inspire reverence in the unbeliever, it inspires disgust.&quot;

This statement provokes two responses, the first being &quot;Well, duh! If the cross inspires reverence in someone then they are probably already a believer, aren&#039;t they?&quot; The second response is, &quot;Why should believers care what the cross inspires in unbelievers?&quot;

Next you trot out a rather worn-out anology claiming that someone tried to sell it as fact. Can you support this?

And frankly, the thought of the bridge tender sacrificing multiple lives for his own son fills a lot of people with disgust as well.

You say, &quot;To the mind of one who does not believe, the Cross is just plain crazy.&quot; I say that to those of us who have come here for a substantive discussion, you sound like a troll.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chuck,</p>
<p>Do you have an original or coherent thought to share? If so, it would be great if you would get to it. Your dismissive (and unsupported) ramblings have brought absolutely nothing to any discussion you have weighed in on.</p>
<p>You wrote, &#8220;The Cross does not inspire reverence in the unbeliever, it inspires disgust.&#8221;</p>
<p>This statement provokes two responses, the first being &#8220;Well, duh! If the cross inspires reverence in someone then they are probably already a believer, aren&#8217;t they?&#8221; The second response is, &#8220;Why should believers care what the cross inspires in unbelievers?&#8221;</p>
<p>Next you trot out a rather worn-out anology claiming that someone tried to sell it as fact. Can you support this?</p>
<p>And frankly, the thought of the bridge tender sacrificing multiple lives for his own son fills a lot of people with disgust as well.</p>
<p>You say, &#8220;To the mind of one who does not believe, the Cross is just plain crazy.&#8221; I say that to those of us who have come here for a substantive discussion, you sound like a troll.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18691</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/the-morality-of-christian-exclusivism-part-three/#comment-18691</guid>
		<description>1 Corinthians 1:20-25</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 Corinthians 1:20-25</p>
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