Comments on: Can Buddhists Teach Christians? http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/ A First Things Blog Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:35:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: A reader http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18899 A reader Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:44:34 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18899 Fr. Leo mentions, several times, significant differences between Christianity and Buddhism; nonetheless, he focuses his discussion primarily on what he calls “convergences.”  But several of these convergences, when looked at more closely, actually reveal deeper  divergences.     For example, Fr. Leo defines “apatheia” as a “state of imperturbable calm” and “freedom from the afflicted emotions that can distort our judgement, whether attraction or aversión.”  However, in his “Letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of Christian Meditation,” Cardinal Ratzinger offers a different definition of the same term: “The Gospel aims above all at a moral purification from the lack of truth and love and, on a deeper level, from all the selfish instincts which impede man from recognizing and accepting the will of God in its purity.  The passions are not negative in themselves . . . but their tendency is to selfishness.  It is from this that the Christian has to free himself in order to arrive at that state of positive freedom which in classical Christian times was called apatheia” (18).  Thus, it is not attraction or aversión which a Christian seeks to be free of through prayer; rather, it is the selfishness that leads one to desire creatures more than the creator, one’s own will rather than God’s will, that the Christian seeks to be free of.   If the Christian is bent entirely on doing God’s will, how is it possible for him to do as the Buddhists do when, as Fr. Leo states, they “simply acknowledge everything that comes up in their practice of meditation, not grasping at it, not putting it away.” We are struck with the entirely different practice of Jesus as he prayed in the desert, actively battling Satan’s temptations.  Once again, the “Letter to Bishops” clarifies this point: “The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only ‘the pure of heart shall see God.’”  Many Christian treatises on prayer teach various strategies on how to battle distracting thoughts, whether sinful or not, but a Christian does not have the option to simply acknowledge a sinful thought.     While Christian prayer always includes an element of struggle, and hardly precludes the experience of powerful and at times anguished emotion, as amply testified to by the saints, it also has the capacity to bring deep peace into the soul, for example as Fr. Leo points out, when one experiences a quiet, wordless “resting in God.”  However, Fr. Leo is mistaken when he writes that the “emptying of Christ is held out as a model for Christians of emptying our own identity so that Christ can fill us.”  The unión between man and God that is sought in Christian prayer bears no resemblance to the concept in Buddhist meditation of “the personal self or the nature of a creature being dissolved or disappearing into the sea of the Absolute” (“Letter to Bishops,” 15).  Further clarification from the “Letter to Bishops” follows: “In order to draw near to that mystery of unión with God, which the Greek Fathers called the divinization of man, and to grasp accurately the manner in which this is realized, it is necessary in the first place to bear in mind that man is essentially a creature, and remains such for eternity, so that an absorbing of the human self into the divine self is never possible, not even in the highest states of grace” (14).  As Fr. Leo himself unequivocally states: “There is nothing in Buddhism that exactly corresponds to the belief in God as creator of the universe.” Neither is there anything in Buddhism that truly corresponds to the essence of Christian prayer, which “is always determined by the Christian faith, in which the very truth of God and creature shines forth.  For this reason it [Christian prayer] is defined, properly speaking, as a personal, intimate and profound dialogue between man and God.  It expresses therefore the communion of redeemed creatures with the intimate life of the Persons of the Trinity.  This communion . . . implies a flight from ‘self’ to the ‘You’ of God” (“Letter to Bishops, 4-5). Fr. Leo mentions, several times, significant differences between Christianity and Buddhism; nonetheless, he focuses his discussion primarily on what he calls “convergences.”  But several of these convergences, when looked at more closely, actually reveal deeper  divergences.  
 
For example, Fr. Leo defines “apatheia” as a “state of imperturbable calm” and “freedom from the afflicted emotions that can distort our judgement, whether attraction or aversión.”  However, in his “Letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of Christian Meditation,” Cardinal Ratzinger offers a different definition of the same term: “The Gospel aims above all at a moral purification from the lack of truth and love and, on a deeper level, from all the selfish instincts which impede man from recognizing and accepting the will of God in its purity.  The passions are not negative in themselves . . . but their tendency is to selfishness.  It is from this that the Christian has to free himself in order to arrive at that state of positive freedom which in classical Christian times was called apatheia” (18).  Thus, it is not attraction or aversión which a Christian seeks to be free of through prayer; rather, it is the selfishness that leads one to desire creatures more than the creator, one’s own will rather than God’s will, that the Christian seeks to be free of.
 
If the Christian is bent entirely on doing God’s will, how is it possible for him to do as the Buddhists do when, as Fr. Leo states, they “simply acknowledge everything that comes up in their practice of meditation, not grasping at it, not putting it away.” We are struck with the entirely different practice of Jesus as he prayed in the desert, actively battling Satan’s temptations.  Once again, the “Letter to Bishops” clarifies this point: “The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only ‘the pure of heart shall see God.’”  Many Christian treatises on prayer teach various strategies on how to battle distracting thoughts, whether sinful or not, but a Christian does not have the option to simply acknowledge a sinful thought.  
 
While Christian prayer always includes an element of struggle, and hardly precludes the experience of powerful and at times anguished emotion, as amply testified to by the saints, it also has the capacity to bring deep peace into the soul, for example as Fr. Leo points out, when one experiences a quiet, wordless “resting in God.”  However, Fr. Leo is mistaken when he writes that the “emptying of Christ is held out as a model for Christians of emptying our own identity so that Christ can fill us.”  The unión between man and God that is sought in Christian prayer bears no resemblance to the concept in Buddhist meditation of “the personal self or the nature of a creature being dissolved or disappearing into the sea of the Absolute” (“Letter to Bishops,” 15).  Further clarification from the “Letter to Bishops” follows: “In order to draw near to that mystery of unión with God, which the Greek Fathers called the divinization of man, and to grasp accurately the manner in which this is realized, it is necessary in the first place to bear in mind that man is essentially a creature, and remains such for eternity, so that an absorbing of the human self into the divine self is never possible, not even in the highest states of grace” (14).  As Fr. Leo himself unequivocally states: “There is nothing in Buddhism that exactly corresponds to the belief in God as creator of the universe.” Neither is there anything in Buddhism that truly corresponds to the essence of Christian prayer, which “is always determined by the Christian faith, in which the very truth of God and creature shines forth.  For this reason it [Christian prayer] is defined, properly speaking, as a personal, intimate and profound dialogue between man and God.  It expresses therefore the communion of redeemed creatures with the intimate life of the Persons of the Trinity.  This communion . . . implies a flight from ‘self’ to the ‘You’ of God” (“Letter to Bishops, 4-5).

]]> By: Steve Drake http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18728 Steve Drake Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:57:22 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18728 @ Tom Gilson #11: <blockquote>"So in that set of things that Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, is it possible that some of them are significantly insightful concerning the human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and so on?"</blockquote> I think as long as we keep in mind that all truth is God's truth, as you have indicated in the last paragraph of #11 above. God has not given us exhaustive knowledge in our Scriptures, but what we do find there within is true truth. The Buddhist starts with an impersonal beginning. It is not pantheism with its root of <i>theism</i> and its semantic illusion of a personal God brought in, but as Francis Schaeffer likes to say <i>'paneverythingism'</i>, with <i>theism</i> used as a connotation word. Judeo-Christianity however, starts with a personal infinite Creator and a personal beginning. The human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and whatever else one might want to say about man as he finds himself, is best understood in light of the fact that (Romans 1:18-32) puts properly in context. @ Tom Gilson #11:

“So in that set of things that Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, is it possible that some of them are significantly insightful concerning the human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and so on?”

I think as long as we keep in mind that all truth is God’s truth, as you have indicated in the last paragraph of #11 above. God has not given us exhaustive knowledge in our Scriptures, but what we do find there within is true truth. The Buddhist starts with an impersonal beginning. It is not pantheism with its root of theism and its semantic illusion of a personal God brought in, but as Francis Schaeffer likes to say ‘paneverythingism’, with theism used as a connotation word.

Judeo-Christianity however, starts with a personal infinite Creator and a personal beginning. The human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and whatever else one might want to say about man as he finds himself, is best understood in light of the fact that (Romans 1:18-32) puts properly in context.

]]> By: Tom Gilson http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18727 Tom Gilson Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:09:29 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18727 Can Buddhists teach Christians? Yes. Maybe I'm overly simplistic, but it seems obvious to me. Is there anything that Christians do not know? Is there anything in that set of things Christians do not know, that Buddhists do know? Well, of course! So in that set of things that Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, is it possible that some of them are significantly insightful concerning the human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and so on? Who could think otherwise? Is there anything in that set of things Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, that is in the category of spiritual/relational/intrapersonal/interpersonal knowledge that Christians really ought to know in order to fulfill God's best? I don't doubt it for a minute. But this gets more complicated.... I don't think Christians have everything figured out, and I don't think God has hidden all truth from non-Christians. So I agree with Jon Rowe, who stated it well. However, I would say that in this case it's not because Christians could not have learned it from our own Scriptures. Rather, it would be something that is there to be learned, but that we have missed. For I am convinced that the Christian Scriptures contain all that we really ought to know in those categories and others like them. I would also say that any proposed knowledge to be gained from other religions like Buddhism must be tested against Scripture to see whether it disagrees with what God teaches through His word. Can Buddhists teach Christians? Yes. Maybe I’m overly simplistic, but it seems obvious to me.

Is there anything that Christians do not know? Is there anything in that set of things Christians do not know, that Buddhists do know? Well, of course!

So in that set of things that Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, is it possible that some of them are significantly insightful concerning the human condition, living life peaceably and honorably, and so on? Who could think otherwise?

Is there anything in that set of things Christians do not know, and that Buddhists do know, that is in the category of spiritual/relational/intrapersonal/interpersonal knowledge that Christians really ought to know in order to fulfill God’s best? I don’t doubt it for a minute. But this gets more complicated….

I don’t think Christians have everything figured out, and I don’t think God has hidden all truth from non-Christians. So I agree with Jon Rowe, who stated it well. However, I would say that in this case it’s not because Christians could not have learned it from our own Scriptures. Rather, it would be something that is there to be learned, but that we have missed. For I am convinced that the Christian Scriptures contain all that we really ought to know in those categories and others like them. I would also say that any proposed knowledge to be gained from other religions like Buddhism must be tested against Scripture to see whether it disagrees with what God teaches through His word.

]]> By: Jon Rowe http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18726 Jon Rowe Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:14:58 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18726 "I just can’t get past the idea that if an idea is found in Christianity, it is found in Christianity, and does not require Buddhists to teach it to us." It could be there are certain ideas that are legitimately part of the Christian tradition but not well known or hidden and Buddhism and other eastern traditions (Taoism) could "bring" them out more. “I just can’t get past the idea that if an idea is found in Christianity, it is found in Christianity, and does not require Buddhists to teach it to us.”

It could be there are certain ideas that are legitimately part of the Christian tradition but not well known or hidden and Buddhism and other eastern traditions (Taoism) could “bring” them out more.

]]> By: Botolph http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18721 Botolph Thu, 23 Jun 2011 02:55:35 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18721 I certainly hear those who have commented on Buddhism needing to learn from Christianity. I also hear this scholar priest really seeking to understand Buddhism Is this scholar all that different from Justin or Clement of Alexandria, even Augustine and others? They saw that while ancient paganism offered no common ground with Christianity, 'Greek Philosophy' which was a 'corrective' to pagan idolatry could be a partner in dialogue as we sought to evangelize the culture. Buddhism, in a similar manner is a 'corrective' to Hinduism. Hinduism is actually an eastern form of that same pagan mythology our Christian forebears saw in Europe 2,000 years ago. Could not Buddhism which seeks wisdom, and Confucianism which seeks civic virtues be real dialogue partners with us? And if they can be dialogue partners with us, could we not learn from them, certainly as Christianity learned from the ancient Philosophers of Greece etc? I certainly hear those who have commented on Buddhism needing to learn from Christianity.

I also hear this scholar priest really seeking to understand Buddhism

Is this scholar all that different from Justin or Clement of Alexandria, even Augustine and others? They saw that while ancient paganism offered no common ground with Christianity, ‘Greek Philosophy’ which was a ‘corrective’ to pagan idolatry could be a partner in dialogue as we sought to evangelize the culture.

Buddhism, in a similar manner is a ‘corrective’ to Hinduism. Hinduism is actually an eastern form of that same pagan mythology our Christian forebears saw in Europe 2,000 years ago. Could not Buddhism which seeks wisdom, and Confucianism which seeks civic virtues be real dialogue partners with us? And if they can be dialogue partners with us, could we not learn from them, certainly as Christianity learned from the ancient Philosophers of Greece etc?

]]> By: Daryl Little http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18718 Daryl Little Thu, 23 Jun 2011 00:53:11 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18718 The trouble with all this is that Christianity is diametrically opposed to all and any other religion. In fact, Paul, in Galatians, goes so far as to say that adding anything to Christ's once-for-all work on the cross, as a grounds for our salvation, actually nullifies any benefit we may gain from Christ. So the Buddist monk needs to be heard, for temporal, community-type of benefit, perhaps. But he needs to hear the gospel for the sake of his soul and his beliefs need to be jettisoned wholesale for the sake of his soul as well. The trouble with all this is that Christianity is diametrically opposed to all and any other religion.
In fact, Paul, in Galatians, goes so far as to say that adding anything to Christ’s once-for-all work on the cross, as a grounds for our salvation, actually nullifies any benefit we may gain from Christ.

So the Buddist monk needs to be heard, for temporal, community-type of benefit, perhaps. But he needs to hear the gospel for the sake of his soul and his beliefs need to be jettisoned wholesale for the sake of his soul as well.

]]> By: First Links – 7.22.11 » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18712 First Links – 7.22.11 » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:27:35 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18712 [...] Can Buddhists Teach Christians? Evangel (Gayle Trotter) Comments (0) var currLayerId = "show"; function togLayer(id) { if(currLayerId) setDisplay(currLayerId, "none"); if(id)setDisplay(id, "block"); currLayerId = id; } function setDisplay(id,value) { var elm = document.getElementById(id); elm.style.display = value; } Click to view comments and add your own. Click to hide comments. [...] [...] Can Buddhists Teach Christians? Evangel (Gayle Trotter) Comments (0) var currLayerId = "show"; function togLayer(id) { if(currLayerId) setDisplay(currLayerId, "none"); if(id)setDisplay(id, "block"); currLayerId = id; } function setDisplay(id,value) { var elm = document.getElementById(id); elm.style.display = value; } Click to view comments and add your own. Click to hide comments. [...]

]]> By: Rachael Starke http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18682 Rachael Starke Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:07:11 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18682 IOW, can a false faith built on a false gospel and a false god that leads its followers down the wide and smooth path to a very real, very tangible, endless torment teach Christians anything? Yes. It can confirm the absolute truth of passages like 2 Peter 1 and 2. What on heaven or earth is there of the Evangel in this post?! IOW, can a false faith built on a false gospel and a false god that leads its followers down the wide and smooth path to a very real, very tangible, endless torment teach Christians anything? Yes. It can confirm the absolute truth of passages like 2 Peter 1 and 2.

What on heaven or earth is there of the Evangel in this post?!

]]> By: Tom Gilson http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18678 Tom Gilson Sat, 18 Jun 2011 10:13:45 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18678 "Other faiths could very well learn from Christianity," you say. Indeed! If they are seeking the truth, then they <em>must</em> learn from Jesus Christ and his life and message. In the end, the adherents of all faiths will learn from Jesus Christ, and bow the knee before him. “Other faiths could very well learn from Christianity,” you say. Indeed! If they are seeking the truth, then they must learn from Jesus Christ and his life and message.

In the end, the adherents of all faiths will learn from Jesus Christ, and bow the knee before him.

]]> By: Nikolai Volk http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18677 Nikolai Volk Sat, 18 Jun 2011 05:19:35 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18677 TUAD's point is correct. While we can learn from other faiths, other faiths could very well learn from Christianity as well. Merely because we disagree with the other faith does not mean that its ideas are diametrically opposed to all Christian ideas. TUAD’s point is correct. While we can learn from other faiths, other faiths could very well learn from Christianity as well. Merely because we disagree with the other faith does not mean that its ideas are diametrically opposed to all Christian ideas.

]]> By: Truth Unites... and Divides http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18676 Truth Unites... and Divides Sat, 18 Jun 2011 00:09:37 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18676 <i>"I think Buddhists can give Christians a reminder of values in our own tradition and give a concrete witness through people like the Dalai Lama and Maha Ghosananda.”</i> Very nice. For a two-way conversation... I think Christians can give Buddhists the Gospel of Jesus Christ and give a concrete witness through the martyrs for Christ throughout the world. “I think Buddhists can give Christians a reminder of values in our own tradition and give a concrete witness through people like the Dalai Lama and Maha Ghosananda.”

Very nice.

For a two-way conversation… I think Christians can give Buddhists the Gospel of Jesus Christ and give a concrete witness through the martyrs for Christ throughout the world.

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18675 pentamom Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:35:07 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18675 I just can't get past the idea that if an idea is found in Christianity, it is found in Christianity, and does not require Buddhists to teach it to us. And Lefebure as much as admits that the valuable ideas in Buddhism have to be significantly recast to actually make them consonant with Christian faith, which actually means that the Buddhist version doesn't get us to Christian ideas. So while trying not to let my knee jerk, how is it that we need Buddhists to teach us what our own faith teaches us more accurately, and our own Lord modeled better than any Buddhist can? I just can’t get past the idea that if an idea is found in Christianity, it is found in Christianity, and does not require Buddhists to teach it to us. And Lefebure as much as admits that the valuable ideas in Buddhism have to be significantly recast to actually make them consonant with Christian faith, which actually means that the Buddhist version doesn’t get us to Christian ideas. So while trying not to let my knee jerk, how is it that we need Buddhists to teach us what our own faith teaches us more accurately, and our own Lord modeled better than any Buddhist can?

]]> By: donsands http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/06/can-buddhists-teach-christians/#comment-18674 donsands Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:35:18 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=11293#comment-18674 Interesting. I like the Dalai Lama, and his easy going attitude, but he should be prayed for that he would come to Christ. Have a great Lord's day and father's day. Interesting. I like the Dalai Lama, and his easy going attitude, but he should be prayed for that he would come to Christ.

Have a great Lord’s day and father’s day.

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