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	<title>Comments on: An Indefensible Faith: Another Review of Love Wins</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Schlueter</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-18006</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Schlueter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-18006</guid>
		<description>Bell&#039;s beliefs on hell are just a repackaging of theological liberalism from the past. He echoes Harry Emerson Fosdick almost exactly. Al Mohler mentions this in his piece on Bell.

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2011/March24/2481.html

Satan has no new material, so he just puts it in a new box for a new generation. The difference is that today, evangelicals, who should be the strongest in refuting it, are increasingly biblically illiterate after decades of circus church and man-centered thematic sermons. You can&#039;t beat something with nothing, as the old political slogan goes. And sadly, evangelicals, doctrinally speaking, have nothing with which to address the neo-liberalism coming from emergent leaders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bell&#8217;s beliefs on hell are just a repackaging of theological liberalism from the past. He echoes Harry Emerson Fosdick almost exactly. Al Mohler mentions this in his piece on Bell.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2011/March24/2481.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2011/March24/2481.html</a></p>
<p>Satan has no new material, so he just puts it in a new box for a new generation. The difference is that today, evangelicals, who should be the strongest in refuting it, are increasingly biblically illiterate after decades of circus church and man-centered thematic sermons. You can&#8217;t beat something with nothing, as the old political slogan goes. And sadly, evangelicals, doctrinally speaking, have nothing with which to address the neo-liberalism coming from emergent leaders.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17825</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17825</guid>
		<description>Balthasar&#039;s probably not hip enough to be Rob Bell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Balthasar&#8217;s probably not hip enough to be Rob Bell.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17822</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17822</guid>
		<description>How is Bell any different than Hans von Balthsar? The even both have worn academic and cool-looking glasses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is Bell any different than Hans von Balthsar? The even both have worn academic and cool-looking glasses.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Simmons</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17761</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2011 06:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17761</guid>
		<description>Whoever frames the argument wins it, unfortunately. That is the case, at least in the minds of an uncritical audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoever frames the argument wins it, unfortunately. That is the case, at least in the minds of an uncritical audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Flashing</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17755</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Flashing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 22:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17755</guid>
		<description>You can email me at sarahflashing@gmail.com. I haven&#039;t read it yet, but just downloaded a sample chapter from kindle. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can email me at <a href="mailto:sarahflashing@gmail.com">sarahflashing@gmail.com</a>. I haven&#8217;t read it yet, but just downloaded a sample chapter from kindle. :)</p>
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		<title>By: wonderingoutloud</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17753</link>
		<dc:creator>wonderingoutloud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 21:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17753</guid>
		<description>Sarah - sorry to post this question to you here -b/c it&#039;s O/T - but wondering if you&#039;re familiar with Carolyn James&#039; work - esp her new book Half the Church?

(Where is a more appropriate place to email you?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah &#8211; sorry to post this question to you here -b/c it&#8217;s O/T &#8211; but wondering if you&#8217;re familiar with Carolyn James&#8217; work &#8211; esp her new book Half the Church?</p>
<p>(Where is a more appropriate place to email you?)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17752</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17752</guid>
		<description>One comment I have is about the inevitable direction of development from Mr. Bell&#039;s flattening of God and scripture. It always gets worse over time.

We have been down this road a few times in Christian history. Sometimes the questioner moves outside the faith altogether (atheist &quot;deconversion stories&quot;). But the most likely destination is something like what is already present in the liberal mainline denominations. The first generation truly believes, but pecks away at the edges; the next generation nods the head to faith but begins the large-scale unravelling; the third generation sees the tattered remnants and wonders what the fuss was about.

Mr. Bell&#039;s program is the same one that was undertaken by the English church 50 years ago, and will, if left unchecked, inevitably leave the church in similar wreckage two generations hence. Or maybe he&#039;s already the second generation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One comment I have is about the inevitable direction of development from Mr. Bell&#8217;s flattening of God and scripture. It always gets worse over time.</p>
<p>We have been down this road a few times in Christian history. Sometimes the questioner moves outside the faith altogether (atheist &#8220;deconversion stories&#8221;). But the most likely destination is something like what is already present in the liberal mainline denominations. The first generation truly believes, but pecks away at the edges; the next generation nods the head to faith but begins the large-scale unravelling; the third generation sees the tattered remnants and wonders what the fuss was about.</p>
<p>Mr. Bell&#8217;s program is the same one that was undertaken by the English church 50 years ago, and will, if left unchecked, inevitably leave the church in similar wreckage two generations hence. Or maybe he&#8217;s already the second generation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Craig L. Adams</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17750</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig L. Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 16:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17750</guid>
		<description>Whereas the &quot;conversations&quot; I have had with Calvinists on the Internet (over many years) have been less than satisfying. Though they certainly do not have a corner on narrow-mindedness, either. There are universalists that I can&#039;t profitably talk to also.

I initially intended to identify with Sarah J. Flashing&#039;s remarks on &lt;i&gt;Love Wins&lt;/i&gt; being a hard book to read. Then, the comment took another direction. 

It&#039;s an easy book to read. It&#039;s hard to figure out what he&#039;s saying. Most people would say that Pannenberg is hard to read. He is. But, it&#039;s a different thing. Pannenberg is trying hard to &lt;b&gt;say something&lt;/b&gt; and be precise in the saying. Whereas with Rob&#039;s book... well, two different people read it and come to completely different interpretations of what it said. And, they can defend those interpretations using quotes from the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whereas the &#8220;conversations&#8221; I have had with Calvinists on the Internet (over many years) have been less than satisfying. Though they certainly do not have a corner on narrow-mindedness, either. There are universalists that I can&#8217;t profitably talk to also.</p>
<p>I initially intended to identify with Sarah J. Flashing&#8217;s remarks on <i>Love Wins</i> being a hard book to read. Then, the comment took another direction. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an easy book to read. It&#8217;s hard to figure out what he&#8217;s saying. Most people would say that Pannenberg is hard to read. He is. But, it&#8217;s a different thing. Pannenberg is trying hard to <b>say something</b> and be precise in the saying. Whereas with Rob&#8217;s book&#8230; well, two different people read it and come to completely different interpretations of what it said. And, they can defend those interpretations using quotes from the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikolai Volk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17749</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikolai Volk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 16:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17749</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;The theology of Rob Bell is open-ended and thus open to correction. Calvinism is a system.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Very true. While I disagree with both Bell&#039;s.....theology?.....and Calvinism, they&#039;re definitely not the same. I know I could have a direct conversation with a Calvinist about her beliefs, I don&#039;t think I could say the same for Rob Bell, sadly. 

Ultimately though, I felt the review was best summed up in these words:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;That God must be this way or that way is a false dilemma and, if permitted to stand, makes vulnerable a host of other doctrines. If God cannot be friend, provider, protector and judge, certainly God would also struggle to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again, this flattened view of God’s nature prevents him from embracing the God who revealed himself in scripture. He is challenged to let scripture speak for itself.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Rob Bell identifies two possible words, neither of which are the only ones that could be true. I understand Bell&#039;s wanting to step away from a fire &amp; brimstone world, that&#039;s not the only way to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The theology of Rob Bell is open-ended and thus open to correction. Calvinism is a system.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Very true. While I disagree with both Bell&#8217;s&#8230;..theology?&#8230;..and Calvinism, they&#8217;re definitely not the same. I know I could have a direct conversation with a Calvinist about her beliefs, I don&#8217;t think I could say the same for Rob Bell, sadly. </p>
<p>Ultimately though, I felt the review was best summed up in these words:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;That God must be this way or that way is a false dilemma and, if permitted to stand, makes vulnerable a host of other doctrines. If God cannot be friend, provider, protector and judge, certainly God would also struggle to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again, this flattened view of God’s nature prevents him from embracing the God who revealed himself in scripture. He is challenged to let scripture speak for itself.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Rob Bell identifies two possible words, neither of which are the only ones that could be true. I understand Bell&#8217;s wanting to step away from a fire &amp; brimstone world, that&#8217;s not the only way to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig L. Adams</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17748</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig L. Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17748</guid>
		<description>No. The theology of Rob Bell is open-ended and thus open to correction. Calvinism is a system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. The theology of Rob Bell is open-ended and thus open to correction. Calvinism is a system.</p>
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		<title>By: Orthodoxdj</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17747</link>
		<dc:creator>Orthodoxdj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17747</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t find Calvinism to be a meaningful answer to Rob Bell. I agree that Rob Bell makes claims that are not warranted by Scripture and that those claims distort the nature of God and human choice. The same is true about the writings of John Calvin. Calvinism is just as serious of a distortion of the nature and love God as is the theology of Rob Bell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t find Calvinism to be a meaningful answer to Rob Bell. I agree that Rob Bell makes claims that are not warranted by Scripture and that those claims distort the nature of God and human choice. The same is true about the writings of John Calvin. Calvinism is just as serious of a distortion of the nature and love God as is the theology of Rob Bell.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig L. Adams</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17745</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig L. Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17745</guid>
		<description>Part of the reason &lt;i&gt;Love Wins&lt;/i&gt; was difficult reading for me, is that I am not part of it&#039;s target audience. It is targeted at those who are repelled by the common fire &amp; brimstone religion of much of the evangelical and fundamentalist world. It is very likely that what we are hearing here is Rob Bell trying to work out how he feels about the religious climate in which he was raised. 

It actually took me a while to connect with the semi-autobiographical aspect of the book. Seeing the viral clip of Martin Bashir grilling Bell put me onto it — even though Bell states the nature of his intended audience at the beginning.

In my initial read-through I thought Bell&#039;s criticisms of the preaching of the evangelical world were over-the-top. I&#039;d still like to believe that is true. But, many people on the Internet have responded to me that these passages &lt;i&gt;ring true&lt;/i&gt; for them as a characterization of the Christianity in which they themselves were raised. If this is the case, the intended audience is larger than I had thought!

And, our current controversies over the book are often demonstrating what a growing segment of people already believe about evangelical Christians: intolerant, hypocritical, judgmental, authoritarian, self-righteous, afraid of questions, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the reason <i>Love Wins</i> was difficult reading for me, is that I am not part of it&#8217;s target audience. It is targeted at those who are repelled by the common fire &amp; brimstone religion of much of the evangelical and fundamentalist world. It is very likely that what we are hearing here is Rob Bell trying to work out how he feels about the religious climate in which he was raised. </p>
<p>It actually took me a while to connect with the semi-autobiographical aspect of the book. Seeing the viral clip of Martin Bashir grilling Bell put me onto it — even though Bell states the nature of his intended audience at the beginning.</p>
<p>In my initial read-through I thought Bell&#8217;s criticisms of the preaching of the evangelical world were over-the-top. I&#8217;d still like to believe that is true. But, many people on the Internet have responded to me that these passages <i>ring true</i> for them as a characterization of the Christianity in which they themselves were raised. If this is the case, the intended audience is larger than I had thought!</p>
<p>And, our current controversies over the book are often demonstrating what a growing segment of people already believe about evangelical Christians: intolerant, hypocritical, judgmental, authoritarian, self-righteous, afraid of questions, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Collin Brendemuehl</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/04/an-indefensible-faith-another-review-of-love-wins/#comment-17743</link>
		<dc:creator>Collin Brendemuehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10732#comment-17743</guid>
		<description>Bell&#039;s deity (hard to coincide it with the God of the Bible) is indefinable and indiscernible, so otherly that the concept is now meaningless.  There is much more which could be said, but  we can leave it at this:  This is clearly outside of orthodoxy.

(I&#039;d try to find a reason to throw out Karl Barth&#039;s name just for the sheer pleasure of it, but there just doesn&#039;t seem to be a good spot right now.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bell&#8217;s deity (hard to coincide it with the God of the Bible) is indefinable and indiscernible, so otherly that the concept is now meaningless.  There is much more which could be said, but  we can leave it at this:  This is clearly outside of orthodoxy.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;d try to find a reason to throw out Karl Barth&#8217;s name just for the sheer pleasure of it, but there just doesn&#8217;t seem to be a good spot right now.)</p>
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