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	<title>Comments on: Outraged!</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: david c</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17589</link>
		<dc:creator>david c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17589</guid>
		<description>Ehrlich writes:
&quot;As for diversity, what we primarily have here is a gathering of folks who interpret their faith through the lens of right-wing conservative politics.&quot;

Interesting that you would make that observation in a thread that contains in its subject nary a hint of the political.  But I suppose when the only tool you have is the ad hominem hammer....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ehrlich writes:<br />
&#8220;As for diversity, what we primarily have here is a gathering of folks who interpret their faith through the lens of right-wing conservative politics.&#8221;</p>
<p>Interesting that you would make that observation in a thread that contains in its subject nary a hint of the political.  But I suppose when the only tool you have is the ad hominem hammer&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17576</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17576</guid>
		<description>Label it whatever you like Tom, the observable fact is when one of the cheerleaders offers an obviously dubious analogy, the fans just jump in to support it, proclaiming it brilliant and incisive.  It fits right in with the standard pattern here. 

As for diversity, what we primarily have here is a gathering of folks who interpret their faith through the lens of right-wing conservative politics.  It may be a motley group in terms of waistlines, body hair, or any number of other accidents--but it&#039;s not anything close to what one could call a thriving marketplace of ideas, or even of conservative Christian ideas.  Excessive inbreeding has rendered most of commentary here remarkably inept (but still unanimously considered brilliant, of course). 

And one needn&#039;t be invested in the mismanaged oil rig to still care about the world it pollutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Label it whatever you like Tom, the observable fact is when one of the cheerleaders offers an obviously dubious analogy, the fans just jump in to support it, proclaiming it brilliant and incisive.  It fits right in with the standard pattern here. </p>
<p>As for diversity, what we primarily have here is a gathering of folks who interpret their faith through the lens of right-wing conservative politics.  It may be a motley group in terms of waistlines, body hair, or any number of other accidents&#8211;but it&#8217;s not anything close to what one could call a thriving marketplace of ideas, or even of conservative Christian ideas.  Excessive inbreeding has rendered most of commentary here remarkably inept (but still unanimously considered brilliant, of course). </p>
<p>And one needn&#8217;t be invested in the mismanaged oil rig to still care about the world it pollutes.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17573</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17573</guid>
		<description>You say,

&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s not exactly a pleasant place to be, but there’s some satisfaction in calling attention to what’s wrong and deleterious about the management.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know about you, but I don&#039;t find that kind of activity satisfying unless it&#039;s an establishment that matters to me, one I care about. Otherwise wisdom leads me to let  go and let things be. If that&#039;s what&#039;s on your heart, well, thank you for caring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say,</p>
<blockquote><p>It’s not exactly a pleasant place to be, but there’s some satisfaction in calling attention to what’s wrong and deleterious about the management.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about you, but I don&#8217;t find that kind of activity satisfying unless it&#8217;s an establishment that matters to me, one I care about. Otherwise wisdom leads me to let  go and let things be. If that&#8217;s what&#8217;s on your heart, well, thank you for caring.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17572</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17572</guid>
		<description>There is a certain level of agreement here, yes, C. Ehrlich; though you seem not to notice that First Things invites an unusually broad spectrum of Christian thought (Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox...). It is by no means a confining environment.

Anyway, I recall being taught about groupthink in introductory psych, and being expected &lt;i&gt;to agree&lt;/i&gt; with the psychology community at large that such a phenomenon exists. In other words, the very concept of groupthink entails that not all group agreement is groupthink.

There is no evidence here of the kind of interdependent, highly-personally-invested social structure that tends to foster groupthink. In fact, studies show that one strong dissenting voice in a group is usually enough to prevent groupthink from forming. It&#039;s clear you have mislabeled and possibly also misunderstood what&#039;s going on here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a certain level of agreement here, yes, C. Ehrlich; though you seem not to notice that First Things invites an unusually broad spectrum of Christian thought (Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox&#8230;). It is by no means a confining environment.</p>
<p>Anyway, I recall being taught about groupthink in introductory psych, and being expected <i>to agree</i> with the psychology community at large that such a phenomenon exists. In other words, the very concept of groupthink entails that not all group agreement is groupthink.</p>
<p>There is no evidence here of the kind of interdependent, highly-personally-invested social structure that tends to foster groupthink. In fact, studies show that one strong dissenting voice in a group is usually enough to prevent groupthink from forming. It&#8217;s clear you have mislabeled and possibly also misunderstood what&#8217;s going on here.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17570</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17570</guid>
		<description>Weaving and dodging. Zigging and zagging. Ad infinitum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weaving and dodging. Zigging and zagging. Ad infinitum.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17569</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17569</guid>
		<description>Except why think of this place as if it were a restaurant?!  Perhaps it&#039;s more like a badly managed oil rig that&#039;s gushing forth pollution.  It&#039;s not exactly a pleasant place to be, but there&#039;s some satisfaction in calling attention to what&#039;s wrong and deleterious about the management.  

The groupthink here is really something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except why think of this place as if it were a restaurant?!  Perhaps it&#8217;s more like a badly managed oil rig that&#8217;s gushing forth pollution.  It&#8217;s not exactly a pleasant place to be, but there&#8217;s some satisfaction in calling attention to what&#8217;s wrong and deleterious about the management.  </p>
<p>The groupthink here is really something else.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17563</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17563</guid>
		<description>&#039;Turns out he just likes the attention. True story.&#039;

I think you may have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one, Mr. Baker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Turns out he just likes the attention. True story.&#8217;</p>
<p>I think you may have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one, Mr. Baker.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Omelianchuk</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17550</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Omelianchuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17550</guid>
		<description>Hunter, 

Brilliant! 

Cheers, 

Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter, </p>
<p>Brilliant! </p>
<p>Cheers, </p>
<p>Adam</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter Baker</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17549</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17549</guid>
		<description>Interesting story.  There&#039;s this guy who goes to a diner he doesn&#039;t like.  Eats food he hates. And complains after every meal.  Asked for a substantive reason he doesn&#039;t like the food, he never puts one forward.  Turns out he just likes the attention.  True story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting story.  There&#8217;s this guy who goes to a diner he doesn&#8217;t like.  Eats food he hates. And complains after every meal.  Asked for a substantive reason he doesn&#8217;t like the food, he never puts one forward.  Turns out he just likes the attention.  True story.</p>
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		<title>By: Livingston Dell</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17546</link>
		<dc:creator>Livingston Dell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17546</guid>
		<description>Ehrlich,

And what voice of dissent would this be? You haven&#039;t provided any counter opinion or intellectual substance of your own. It seems the only service you provide is to be a shunt of any thoughtful growth whatsoever. 

I now see that these responses are simply grooming your own self-obliged ego with which you view yourself as a &quot;voice of dissent&quot; when in reality you are simply a contrarian who appears to be bored. As such, I&#039;m just going to ignore you. Because of your lack of ACTUAL opinion and condescending statements, you have lost all credibility that I would normally give to someone on this blog (which is ample, I assure you) with me, and therefore my respect. I am well aware that this means absolutely nothing to you, but I hope that one day you can emulate JMR and have your own self reflection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ehrlich,</p>
<p>And what voice of dissent would this be? You haven&#8217;t provided any counter opinion or intellectual substance of your own. It seems the only service you provide is to be a shunt of any thoughtful growth whatsoever. </p>
<p>I now see that these responses are simply grooming your own self-obliged ego with which you view yourself as a &#8220;voice of dissent&#8221; when in reality you are simply a contrarian who appears to be bored. As such, I&#8217;m just going to ignore you. Because of your lack of ACTUAL opinion and condescending statements, you have lost all credibility that I would normally give to someone on this blog (which is ample, I assure you) with me, and therefore my respect. I am well aware that this means absolutely nothing to you, but I hope that one day you can emulate JMR and have your own self reflection.</p>
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		<title>By: Odgie</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17545</link>
		<dc:creator>Odgie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17545</guid>
		<description>Ehrlich,

This post, and the ensuing comments, had nothing to do with Mr. Reynolds&#039; vision for the world, whatever that might be. All that he did was call out a wannabe &quot;edgy&quot; writer and showed Frey to be the celebrity-seeking joke that he is (and he was much kinder and more self-deprecating than the secularist author of the referenced AMERICAN SPECTATOR piece I might add). I&#039;m not sure what &quot;dissent&quot; that you think you are providing. You stated that you had no sympathy for Frey. Do you take exception to Reynolds calling him out?

And you still haven&#039;t told us what critical thinking community takes you seriously as a thinker...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ehrlich,</p>
<p>This post, and the ensuing comments, had nothing to do with Mr. Reynolds&#8217; vision for the world, whatever that might be. All that he did was call out a wannabe &#8220;edgy&#8221; writer and showed Frey to be the celebrity-seeking joke that he is (and he was much kinder and more self-deprecating than the secularist author of the referenced AMERICAN SPECTATOR piece I might add). I&#8217;m not sure what &#8220;dissent&#8221; that you think you are providing. You stated that you had no sympathy for Frey. Do you take exception to Reynolds calling him out?</p>
<p>And you still haven&#8217;t told us what critical thinking community takes you seriously as a thinker&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17543</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17543</guid>
		<description>&quot;I would like to be there if only to voice dissent.&quot;

And never to have to answer substantively for that dissent. Weaving and dodging, zigging and zagging. Always there to boost a self-imposed self-importance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would like to be there if only to voice dissent.&#8221;</p>
<p>And never to have to answer substantively for that dissent. Weaving and dodging, zigging and zagging. Always there to boost a self-imposed self-importance.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17542</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17542</guid>
		<description>Perhaps everyone would think alike in Mr. Baker&#039;s conservative utopia. I would like to be there if only to voice dissent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps everyone would think alike in Mr. Baker&#8217;s conservative utopia. I would like to be there if only to voice dissent.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter Baker</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17540</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17540</guid>
		<description>All of this is the classic Ehrlichian response to blog posts.  He complains about them.  I have no idea why he would choose to read a blog of this type unless he is the type of person who enjoys taking offense and writing complaints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of this is the classic Ehrlichian response to blog posts.  He complains about them.  I have no idea why he would choose to read a blog of this type unless he is the type of person who enjoys taking offense and writing complaints.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/outraged/#comment-17539</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10508#comment-17539</guid>
		<description>Someone should start a thread about &quot;the source of morality&quot; so we can knock Mr. Drake off his hobbyhorse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone should start a thread about &#8220;the source of morality&#8221; so we can knock Mr. Drake off his hobbyhorse.</p>
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