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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Homophobia&#8221; Strikes Back</title>
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	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17480</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17480</guid>
		<description>In response to Matteo: 

The gay evolutionary psychologist Jesse Bering has just published a piece pretty much confirming his agreement with your position, Matteo. &quot;Homophobics&quot; can&#039;t help being that way, he says. The article is called &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=natural-homophobes-evolutionary-psy-2011-03-09&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Natural Homophobes&lt;/a&gt;, and he ends it with,

&lt;blockquote&gt;That Gallup’s ideas could be championed by antisocial conservatives to promote further intolerance against gays is inevitable, perhaps; but if it’s any consolation, it should also have them doing a bit of navel-gazing, seeing that their hatred is just an artifact of their  godlessly evolved minds.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If hatred is just an artifact of evolution...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Matteo: </p>
<p>The gay evolutionary psychologist Jesse Bering has just published a piece pretty much confirming his agreement with your position, Matteo. &#8220;Homophobics&#8221; can&#8217;t help being that way, he says. The article is called <a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=natural-homophobes-evolutionary-psy-2011-03-09" rel="nofollow">Natural Homophobes</a>, and he ends it with,</p>
<blockquote><p>That Gallup’s ideas could be championed by antisocial conservatives to promote further intolerance against gays is inevitable, perhaps; but if it’s any consolation, it should also have them doing a bit of navel-gazing, seeing that their hatred is just an artifact of their  godlessly evolved minds.</p></blockquote>
<p>If hatred is just an artifact of evolution&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Pray for NEA Extremists; Pray for Our Schools - Thinking Christian</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17474</link>
		<dc:creator>Pray for NEA Extremists; Pray for Our Schools - Thinking Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2011 13:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17474</guid>
		<description>[...] recently on &#8220;homophobia&#8221; (you may find the same article with a more lively discussion here). Other themes worth mentioning here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recently on &#8220;homophobia&#8221; (you may find the same article with a more lively discussion here). Other themes worth mentioning here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: david c</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17468</link>
		<dc:creator>david c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17468</guid>
		<description>Agreed (as you know, Tom).  

I do wonder sometimes, if evangelicalism with its tendencies towards utilitarianism and the uncritical acceptance of methods of modern advertising and the use of media, has not (unwittingly) promoted the &#039;strategic and effective&#039; without really fully considering issues of integrity, or civility. 

But like I said, I&#039;m crusty...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed (as you know, Tom).  </p>
<p>I do wonder sometimes, if evangelicalism with its tendencies towards utilitarianism and the uncritical acceptance of methods of modern advertising and the use of media, has not (unwittingly) promoted the &#8216;strategic and effective&#8217; without really fully considering issues of integrity, or civility. </p>
<p>But like I said, I&#8217;m crusty&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17467</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17467</guid>
		<description>Some tactics that may be strategic and effective are nonetheless off limits for people who care about their integrity. (You knew that, I know!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some tactics that may be strategic and effective are nonetheless off limits for people who care about their integrity. (You knew that, I know!)</p>
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		<title>By: david c</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17466</link>
		<dc:creator>david c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17466</guid>
		<description>For a crusty old English major like myself, the term &#039;homophobia&#039; is in itself problematic.  It means literally &#039;fear of the same&#039;.  So, when it comes to dinner I am indeed &#039;homophobic&#039; -- at least about what I cook for my family night in and night out.  We like variety in our household.

But seriously.  To brand a serious religious/moral conviction as a species of mental illness is to participate willingly in the destruction of rational debate. It&#039;s a trump card played as part of a pure power game which seeks not so much to engage the opposition as to silence them and brand them as outside the pale of rational, civil society.  It is almost never appropriate. It may be descriptive of some small sample of folks on the fringe (Westboro Baptist &#039;Church&#039; for example) but it really is a variant of the &quot;shut up, I explained&#039; gambit.  It operates much like the term &quot;racist&quot; -- an accusation which immediately sucks all the air out of any rational discussion.  Which, I suspect, is the intent.

Finally, (in the &#039;sauce for the goose&#039; style) if it is really fair to use such a term, broadly speaking, why don&#039;t we brand those favoring abortion as &quot;biophobic&quot;?  Or the atheist as &quot;theophobic&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a crusty old English major like myself, the term &#8216;homophobia&#8217; is in itself problematic.  It means literally &#8216;fear of the same&#8217;.  So, when it comes to dinner I am indeed &#8216;homophobic&#8217; &#8212; at least about what I cook for my family night in and night out.  We like variety in our household.</p>
<p>But seriously.  To brand a serious religious/moral conviction as a species of mental illness is to participate willingly in the destruction of rational debate. It&#8217;s a trump card played as part of a pure power game which seeks not so much to engage the opposition as to silence them and brand them as outside the pale of rational, civil society.  It is almost never appropriate. It may be descriptive of some small sample of folks on the fringe (Westboro Baptist &#8216;Church&#8217; for example) but it really is a variant of the &#8220;shut up, I explained&#8217; gambit.  It operates much like the term &#8220;racist&#8221; &#8212; an accusation which immediately sucks all the air out of any rational discussion.  Which, I suspect, is the intent.</p>
<p>Finally, (in the &#8216;sauce for the goose&#8217; style) if it is really fair to use such a term, broadly speaking, why don&#8217;t we brand those favoring abortion as &#8220;biophobic&#8221;?  Or the atheist as &#8220;theophobic&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17460</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 13:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17460</guid>
		<description>Dear Matteo:  Funny!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Matteo:  Funny!</p>
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		<title>By: Matteo</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17459</link>
		<dc:creator>Matteo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 03:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17459</guid>
		<description>Leftists do show that they have nothing but pure contempt for those suffering from mental illness if they cast moral judgment on homophobia. Either that, or they know full well they are just blowing smoke.

Don&#039;t those with the gene for homophobia need to be accepted and tolerated? They didn&#039;t ask to be born with the condition, and, what with it being a mental disorder and all, they are not morally culpable.

Can&#039;t leftists please, &lt;em&gt;please&lt;/em&gt; show a little compassion for a problem that is much more widespread than homosexuality itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leftists do show that they have nothing but pure contempt for those suffering from mental illness if they cast moral judgment on homophobia. Either that, or they know full well they are just blowing smoke.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t those with the gene for homophobia need to be accepted and tolerated? They didn&#8217;t ask to be born with the condition, and, what with it being a mental disorder and all, they are not morally culpable.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t leftists please, <em>please</em> show a little compassion for a problem that is much more widespread than homosexuality itself?</p>
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		<title>By: JAD</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17457</link>
		<dc:creator>JAD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 19:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17457</guid>
		<description>Modern democratic societies are founded on two basic principles:  (1)tolerance and (2)freedom of thought or conscience.  We need to note that the American founders often used freedom of conscience interchangeably with freedom of religion, which also could be freedom of no religion. 

The fact that modern democracies are founded on these two principles has led to a society that is, to a  large degree, morally diverse, especially when it comes to matters of sexuality and sexual expression.

I’m enough of a libertarian that for the most part I’m okay with this, as long as my rights and personal moral choices are respected.

The problem with the so called gay rights movement is that it undermines the two basic principles I’ve listed above.  In arguing that certain kinds of moral and religious thinking is unhealthy or pathological the rhetoric itself, at least implicitly, advocates the undermining those rights.  In other words, a Christian believing and thinking that homosexuality is immoral is, in the view of gay activists,  thinking and believing things that are not only illegitimate but also not to be tolerated.  A Christian’s freedom of conscience is, therefore, essentially nullified.

The beauty of natural rights as conceived by the founders was that they were universal and not mutually exclusive.  Advocates of so called &quot;gay rights,&quot; on the other hand, posit a position that is mutually exclusive with the vision of the founders and the vast majority of people that enjoy our societie&#039;s freedoms.

If Christians pushed their morality the same way the gay rights advocates push theirs they would be accused of trying to establish a theocracy.  Like a man-made theocracy the utopian vision of these militant gays can only lead one place-- a totalitarian society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Modern democratic societies are founded on two basic principles:  (1)tolerance and (2)freedom of thought or conscience.  We need to note that the American founders often used freedom of conscience interchangeably with freedom of religion, which also could be freedom of no religion. </p>
<p>The fact that modern democracies are founded on these two principles has led to a society that is, to a  large degree, morally diverse, especially when it comes to matters of sexuality and sexual expression.</p>
<p>I’m enough of a libertarian that for the most part I’m okay with this, as long as my rights and personal moral choices are respected.</p>
<p>The problem with the so called gay rights movement is that it undermines the two basic principles I’ve listed above.  In arguing that certain kinds of moral and religious thinking is unhealthy or pathological the rhetoric itself, at least implicitly, advocates the undermining those rights.  In other words, a Christian believing and thinking that homosexuality is immoral is, in the view of gay activists,  thinking and believing things that are not only illegitimate but also not to be tolerated.  A Christian’s freedom of conscience is, therefore, essentially nullified.</p>
<p>The beauty of natural rights as conceived by the founders was that they were universal and not mutually exclusive.  Advocates of so called &#8220;gay rights,&#8221; on the other hand, posit a position that is mutually exclusive with the vision of the founders and the vast majority of people that enjoy our societie&#8217;s freedoms.</p>
<p>If Christians pushed their morality the same way the gay rights advocates push theirs they would be accused of trying to establish a theocracy.  Like a man-made theocracy the utopian vision of these militant gays can only lead one place&#8211; a totalitarian society.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17454</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 23:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17454</guid>
		<description>Craig Payne: thanks for your comments. I have always respected your rational approach to things, even when I&#039;ve disagreed. I didn&#039;t think you would mind, me pointing this out. 


I  know that I&#039;ve been guilty of painting with a broad brush, before, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig Payne: thanks for your comments. I have always respected your rational approach to things, even when I&#8217;ve disagreed. I didn&#8217;t think you would mind, me pointing this out. </p>
<p>I  know that I&#8217;ve been guilty of painting with a broad brush, before, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17453</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 23:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17453</guid>
		<description>Tom, you&#039;re right. Certainly the term &quot;homophobia&#039;&#039; has been used to describe not just those who hate homosexuals (and if it was restricted to just these people, it would be an accurate description), but also, it seems, to any who disagree with homosexual practices. This latter use of the term, is clearly irrational, and thus unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, you&#8217;re right. Certainly the term &#8220;homophobia&#8221; has been used to describe not just those who hate homosexuals (and if it was restricted to just these people, it would be an accurate description), but also, it seems, to any who disagree with homosexual practices. This latter use of the term, is clearly irrational, and thus unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17452</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 22:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17452</guid>
		<description>Dear Bret Lythgoe:  You wrote that I was &quot;painting with a broad brush.&quot;  To this I plead guilty.

After all, I have a lot of atheist friends who are very, very clear thinkers.

But I still stick by my comments--as long as it&#039;s recognized that I am broad-brushing, just a tad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Bret Lythgoe:  You wrote that I was &#8220;painting with a broad brush.&#8221;  To this I plead guilty.</p>
<p>After all, I have a lot of atheist friends who are very, very clear thinkers.</p>
<p>But I still stick by my comments&#8211;as long as it&#8217;s recognized that I am broad-brushing, just a tad.</p>
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		<title>By: ThoughtBolts</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17447</link>
		<dc:creator>ThoughtBolts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 16:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17447</guid>
		<description>[...] “Homophobia” Strikes Back [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] “Homophobia” Strikes Back [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17445</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 15:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17445</guid>
		<description>Bret,

Granted there are people with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals. The term &quot;homophobic&quot; is still wrong for them; it still short-circuits rational discourse; it is still tarred by its over-application to people who neither fear nor hate homosexuals. I mean, if you think it&#039;s important to qualify statements concerning Islam&#039;s treatment of women, then for consistency you ought to be joining us in calling an end to the use of &quot;homophobia.&quot; Why not just identify the people you are speaking of, those who hate homosexuals with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals, as people with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals?
 
Don&#039;t lose sight of gay-rights insurgents&#039; documented intentionally manipulative purposes. Don&#039;t support it, either; you know better than that, I&#039;m sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bret,</p>
<p>Granted there are people with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals. The term &#8220;homophobic&#8221; is still wrong for them; it still short-circuits rational discourse; it is still tarred by its over-application to people who neither fear nor hate homosexuals. I mean, if you think it&#8217;s important to qualify statements concerning Islam&#8217;s treatment of women, then for consistency you ought to be joining us in calling an end to the use of &#8220;homophobia.&#8221; Why not just identify the people you are speaking of, those who hate homosexuals with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals, as people with an evil and/or irrational hatred toward homosexuals?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t lose sight of gay-rights insurgents&#8217; documented intentionally manipulative purposes. Don&#8217;t support it, either; you know better than that, I&#8217;m sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17441</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17441</guid>
		<description>Craig Payne: In fairness, you do qualify your claims, with &quot;So far, there hasn&#039;t been much cognitive dissonance in the secular mind between &#039;All cultures are equally valid-none is &#039;better&#039; than another. and &#039;Islam&#039;s treatment of womenis bad.&#039; both of these are considered rational beliefs&#039;&#039;. Your qualifying, is in &quot;so far there hasn&#039;t been much&#039;&#039;, which implies that you do accept that some secular minds HAVE rejected this inconsistent viewpoint. But you do imply that many, if not most secular minds hold these moral absolutist/ relativist views, at the same time. Perhaps this is true, but I haven&#039;t seen any evidence for it, do you have evidence, for it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig Payne: In fairness, you do qualify your claims, with &#8220;So far, there hasn&#8217;t been much cognitive dissonance in the secular mind between &#8216;All cultures are equally valid-none is &#8216;better&#8217; than another. and &#8216;Islam&#8217;s treatment of womenis bad.&#8217; both of these are considered rational beliefs&#8221;. Your qualifying, is in &#8220;so far there hasn&#8217;t been much&#8221;, which implies that you do accept that some secular minds HAVE rejected this inconsistent viewpoint. But you do imply that many, if not most secular minds hold these moral absolutist/ relativist views, at the same time. Perhaps this is true, but I haven&#8217;t seen any evidence for it, do you have evidence, for it?</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/homophobia-strikes-back/#comment-17440</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=10425#comment-17440</guid>
		<description>Craig Payne: you make a good point that, clearly, there are those who seem to hold logically inconsistent views. But it&#039;s important, to not paint, with too broad a brush.


When you refer to the &quot;secular mind&#039;&#039;, you seem to imply that, it consists of a monolithic cognitive structure, with respect to its moral judgments: they claim all cultures are equal, and yet, Islam treatment of women is bad, two seemingly contradictory views. While I agree with you that, those who do hold these opposing notions, are being illogical, in this regard (one cannot affirm moral relativism, as implied by the view that all cultures are equally valid, or good, since this same claim-all cultures are equally valid-is an absolutist claim, but also, the notion that a particular culture, Islam&#039;s treatment of women, is bad, is an absolutist moral claim), it&#039;s important to point out that, not all secular minds, are oriented toward moral relativism, or hold, the moral relativism, and moral absolutism, at the same time, and are therefore inconsistent. Some, or many, but not all. Thomas Nagal, a New York philosopher, and atheist, for example, is an absolutist, morally. 


Also, it&#039;s inaccurate for someone to assert &quot;Islam&#039;s treatment of women&#039;&#039;. Which branch? Some branches treat women better than others. I know you were just using this as an example, and you propbably don&#039;t believe that all Islam, treats women badly, but it&#039;s important to qualify, these statements.


Clearly, moral relativism is untenable, as is the intellectual cancer, of which moral relativism, is a portion of, the postmodern denial of truth. But this is not the exclusive domain, of secularists. Some Christians, have flirted with postmodernism, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig Payne: you make a good point that, clearly, there are those who seem to hold logically inconsistent views. But it&#8217;s important, to not paint, with too broad a brush.</p>
<p>When you refer to the &#8220;secular mind&#8221;, you seem to imply that, it consists of a monolithic cognitive structure, with respect to its moral judgments: they claim all cultures are equal, and yet, Islam treatment of women is bad, two seemingly contradictory views. While I agree with you that, those who do hold these opposing notions, are being illogical, in this regard (one cannot affirm moral relativism, as implied by the view that all cultures are equally valid, or good, since this same claim-all cultures are equally valid-is an absolutist claim, but also, the notion that a particular culture, Islam&#8217;s treatment of women, is bad, is an absolutist moral claim), it&#8217;s important to point out that, not all secular minds, are oriented toward moral relativism, or hold, the moral relativism, and moral absolutism, at the same time, and are therefore inconsistent. Some, or many, but not all. Thomas Nagal, a New York philosopher, and atheist, for example, is an absolutist, morally. </p>
<p>Also, it&#8217;s inaccurate for someone to assert &#8220;Islam&#8217;s treatment of women&#8221;. Which branch? Some branches treat women better than others. I know you were just using this as an example, and you propbably don&#8217;t believe that all Islam, treats women badly, but it&#8217;s important to qualify, these statements.</p>
<p>Clearly, moral relativism is untenable, as is the intellectual cancer, of which moral relativism, is a portion of, the postmodern denial of truth. But this is not the exclusive domain, of secularists. Some Christians, have flirted with postmodernism, as well.</p>
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