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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Are Christians Obsessed With Gays and Abortion?&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17582</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 07:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17582</guid>
		<description>Tom, thanks for explaining the pun, I missed it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, thanks for explaining the pun, I missed it!</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17581</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 06:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17581</guid>
		<description>Tom, I understand your concerns. Certainly, historically, the abortion &quot;rights&#039;&#039; movement has been connected to the gay rights movement. There are reasons for this, having to do with the acceptance, that both groups tend to have, of social liberalism.


However, the two can be seperated, conherently. It can be argued (persuasively, I think) that both being Pro life, regarding abortion, and being for gay rights, are examples of being for human rights, generally. ( and this is true regardless of whether one accepts all aspects of the gay rights &quot;agenda&#039;&#039;. One could be a conservative Christian, and merely believe that gays/lesbians, deserve equal rights in employment, civil unions, rather than marriages, equal access to housing, etc.). 


Also, most gay rights advocates accept that, truth exists, and that morality is, not relative. They claim that, gays/lesbians, are that way, due to genetics. This is an objective claim, that is either true, or false. They also claim that, it&#039;s wrong to discriminate against gays/lesbians, which implies moral realism (realism, in the sense that, morality is objectively true, and not arbitrary, or situational), this is congruent with the notion that, killing the fetus is objectively wrong. Both the bad treatment of gays, and the killing of fetuses, are examples of objectively wrong behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I understand your concerns. Certainly, historically, the abortion &#8220;rights&#8221; movement has been connected to the gay rights movement. There are reasons for this, having to do with the acceptance, that both groups tend to have, of social liberalism.</p>
<p>However, the two can be seperated, conherently. It can be argued (persuasively, I think) that both being Pro life, regarding abortion, and being for gay rights, are examples of being for human rights, generally. ( and this is true regardless of whether one accepts all aspects of the gay rights &#8220;agenda&#8221;. One could be a conservative Christian, and merely believe that gays/lesbians, deserve equal rights in employment, civil unions, rather than marriages, equal access to housing, etc.). </p>
<p>Also, most gay rights advocates accept that, truth exists, and that morality is, not relative. They claim that, gays/lesbians, are that way, due to genetics. This is an objective claim, that is either true, or false. They also claim that, it&#8217;s wrong to discriminate against gays/lesbians, which implies moral realism (realism, in the sense that, morality is objectively true, and not arbitrary, or situational), this is congruent with the notion that, killing the fetus is objectively wrong. Both the bad treatment of gays, and the killing of fetuses, are examples of objectively wrong behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17561</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17561</guid>
		<description>Bret, I cannot march to the PLAGAL cadence.* 

Here&#039;s why. There are common worldview issues underlying both gay rights and abortion rights advocacy. In short, both groups believe that it is up to humans to define what it means to be human.

Abortion is permissible (some say) because no one from on high declares the fetus to have intrinsic moral worth as a human. That would be a very strong argument if it were true.

Homosexual practice is permissible (some say) because no one from on high declares man-woman sexuality to be normal and normative for humans. That, too, would be a strong argument if it were true.

(Understand, please, that I&#039;m speaking in very brief form here. I can&#039;t take time now to fully develop these points.)

Not every argument against abortion or SSM is overtly, immediately theological, but every such argument rests on a theological foundation. They all take it as true that God exists, that he is good, that his goodness is revealed and is knowable through Scripture, conscience, and nature. Take away that foundation, and everything we know even from nature and conscience collapses.

These things go deep, and the depth matters.

&lt;em&gt;*Some of you will get the pun there: it&#039;s a music theory thing. (The traditional &quot;Amen&quot; ending for hymns is one example of a &quot;plagal cadence.&quot;) I apologize to you who were unaware of that and therefore couldn&#039;t get the pun. I should apologize even more to those of you who know enough about music to have caught it.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bret, I cannot march to the PLAGAL cadence.* </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s why. There are common worldview issues underlying both gay rights and abortion rights advocacy. In short, both groups believe that it is up to humans to define what it means to be human.</p>
<p>Abortion is permissible (some say) because no one from on high declares the fetus to have intrinsic moral worth as a human. That would be a very strong argument if it were true.</p>
<p>Homosexual practice is permissible (some say) because no one from on high declares man-woman sexuality to be normal and normative for humans. That, too, would be a strong argument if it were true.</p>
<p>(Understand, please, that I&#8217;m speaking in very brief form here. I can&#8217;t take time now to fully develop these points.)</p>
<p>Not every argument against abortion or SSM is overtly, immediately theological, but every such argument rests on a theological foundation. They all take it as true that God exists, that he is good, that his goodness is revealed and is knowable through Scripture, conscience, and nature. Take away that foundation, and everything we know even from nature and conscience collapses.</p>
<p>These things go deep, and the depth matters.</p>
<p><em>*Some of you will get the pun there: it&#8217;s a music theory thing. (The traditional &#8220;Amen&#8221; ending for hymns is one example of a &#8220;plagal cadence.&#8221;) I apologize to you who were unaware of that and therefore couldn&#8217;t get the pun. I should apologize even more to those of you who know enough about music to have caught it.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gilson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17560</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17560</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

For the Family Research Council to devote considerable time and attention to marriage is entirely appropriate. It&#039;s what they&#039;re called to do. 

What matters most about the gay &quot;marriage&quot; thing is not just same-sex couples sharing a home and certain legal rights. It&#039;s all that comes with it: the demonizing of those who disagree, the way they distort Scripture and nature to make their case, the violations of conscience they&#039;re forcing on Catholics in Massachusetts and innkeepers in Britain, their view that sexual morality is entirely a matter of private opinion, the corollary view that sexual behavior has no objective moral dimension attached to it; and beyond all that, the witness of history that civilizations that accept these kinds of things as normal and customary do not survive.

I don&#039;t know why the Family Research Council should not devote some attention to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>For the Family Research Council to devote considerable time and attention to marriage is entirely appropriate. It&#8217;s what they&#8217;re called to do. </p>
<p>What matters most about the gay &#8220;marriage&#8221; thing is not just same-sex couples sharing a home and certain legal rights. It&#8217;s all that comes with it: the demonizing of those who disagree, the way they distort Scripture and nature to make their case, the violations of conscience they&#8217;re forcing on Catholics in Massachusetts and innkeepers in Britain, their view that sexual morality is entirely a matter of private opinion, the corollary view that sexual behavior has no objective moral dimension attached to it; and beyond all that, the witness of history that civilizations that accept these kinds of things as normal and customary do not survive.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know why the Family Research Council should not devote some attention to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17557</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17557</guid>
		<description>in fact, I think, considering finite resources, and time, finding ways to peacefully end abortion, and convince others of this, should be the only priortiy, vis a vis cultural issues. The group, Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians,(PLAGAL) could be a wonderful partner, in the fight against abortion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in fact, I think, considering finite resources, and time, finding ways to peacefully end abortion, and convince others of this, should be the only priortiy, vis a vis cultural issues. The group, Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians,(PLAGAL) could be a wonderful partner, in the fight against abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17556</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17556</guid>
		<description>I have to echo Jeremy Pierce, here. There&#039;s no doubt that, abortion, the taking of a human life, should have a primary priorty, if not exclusive priority, in the cultural area. 

indded, considering the significance, moraly, of abortion, it seems ludicrous to spend time arguing about consenting adults, of the same sex, who love each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to echo Jeremy Pierce, here. There&#8217;s no doubt that, abortion, the taking of a human life, should have a primary priorty, if not exclusive priority, in the cultural area. </p>
<p>indded, considering the significance, moraly, of abortion, it seems ludicrous to spend time arguing about consenting adults, of the same sex, who love each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Orthodoxdj</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17555</link>
		<dc:creator>Orthodoxdj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17555</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

What&#039;s wrong with devoting an organization devoting its time and resources to same-sex issues?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>What&#8217;s wrong with devoting an organization devoting its time and resources to same-sex issues?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17552</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17552</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s certainly right about the vast majority of Christian organizations, including Focus on the Family (at least insofar as they spend their money and time). But the most noticeable political organizations (and the most significant use of political time by the groups like Focus on the Family who only sometimes deal in politics) might nevertheless betray an untoward focus on certain issues that are really not all that central. A good argument can be made that abortion is a really important issue. It&#039;s a lot harder to make the case that same-sex issues are remotely deserving of the time given to them by the Family Research Council, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s certainly right about the vast majority of Christian organizations, including Focus on the Family (at least insofar as they spend their money and time). But the most noticeable political organizations (and the most significant use of political time by the groups like Focus on the Family who only sometimes deal in politics) might nevertheless betray an untoward focus on certain issues that are really not all that central. A good argument can be made that abortion is a really important issue. It&#8217;s a lot harder to make the case that same-sex issues are remotely deserving of the time given to them by the Family Research Council, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17548</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17548</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;For example, it may be that conservative Christians donate more dollars to charities for the poor then charities to help gays (and that’s probably because the number of charities for the former dwarf the later), but the opposite may be true in terms of time spent engaged in political activism.&lt;/i&gt;

So let me get this straight.

Christians spend far more money on charity than on politics - unlike the left wing opponents who are the ones accusing them of being &quot;obsessed&quot; - but that doesn&#039;t matter because maybe Christians actions follow a different pattern?

Oh, and don&#039;t forget, maybe they&#039;re just donating money but &lt;i&gt;thinking bad thoughts&lt;/i&gt; as they do so!

Yawn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>For example, it may be that conservative Christians donate more dollars to charities for the poor then charities to help gays (and that’s probably because the number of charities for the former dwarf the later), but the opposite may be true in terms of time spent engaged in political activism.</i></p>
<p>So let me get this straight.</p>
<p>Christians spend far more money on charity than on politics &#8211; unlike the left wing opponents who are the ones accusing them of being &#8220;obsessed&#8221; &#8211; but that doesn&#8217;t matter because maybe Christians actions follow a different pattern?</p>
<p>Oh, and don&#8217;t forget, maybe they&#8217;re just donating money but <i>thinking bad thoughts</i> as they do so!</p>
<p>Yawn.</p>
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		<title>By: R Hampton</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17518</link>
		<dc:creator>R Hampton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/03/are-christians-obsessed-with-gays-and-abortion/#comment-17518</guid>
		<description>David French&#039;s analysis lack specificity. When the complaint is made about gays and abortion, the Christians in reference are not in fact all Christians. As French himself admits, this association that has arisen due to the culture wars, so his focus should be on conservative Christians and their data -- and he ought to compare the giving within this community by dollars, hours (volunteer), and political focus (the hardest to measure.) 

For example, it may be that conservative Christians donate more dollars to charities for the poor then charities to help gays (and that&#039;s probably because the number of charities for the former dwarf the later), but the opposite may be true in terms of time spent engaged in political activism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David French&#8217;s analysis lack specificity. When the complaint is made about gays and abortion, the Christians in reference are not in fact all Christians. As French himself admits, this association that has arisen due to the culture wars, so his focus should be on conservative Christians and their data &#8212; and he ought to compare the giving within this community by dollars, hours (volunteer), and political focus (the hardest to measure.) </p>
<p>For example, it may be that conservative Christians donate more dollars to charities for the poor then charities to help gays (and that&#8217;s probably because the number of charities for the former dwarf the later), but the opposite may be true in terms of time spent engaged in political activism.</p>
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