Comments on: Pondering the Lack of Miraculous Births in the Bible http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/ A First Things Blog Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:35:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Craig Payne http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16255 Craig Payne Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:27:29 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16255 JGY, my apologies. I thought you were just being snarky. And so I was, in return. Anyway, Merry Christmas to all. JGY, my apologies. I thought you were just being snarky. And so I was, in return. Anyway, Merry Christmas to all.

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16252 pentamom Tue, 21 Dec 2010 03:51:40 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16252 Or, a bit more than that, of course -- in this case the conception was not merely an ordinary human one that happened in an unusual way, but a specially divine one. And yet it is right to say in one sense that the thought of God divinely bringing about conception shouldn't really even raise eyebrows -- it's other aspects of the case of Jesus that are miraculous, surprising, and special. Or, a bit more than that, of course — in this case the conception was not merely an ordinary human one that happened in an unusual way, but a specially divine one. And yet it is right to say in one sense that the thought of God divinely bringing about conception shouldn’t really even raise eyebrows — it’s other aspects of the case of Jesus that are miraculous, surprising, and special.

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16251 pentamom Tue, 21 Dec 2010 03:48:19 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16251 In fact, it could be said that God does divinely bring about every conception that occurs -- but the miracle here was "eliminating the middle man," so to speak. In fact, it could be said that God does divinely bring about every conception that occurs — but the miracle here was “eliminating the middle man,” so to speak.

]]> By: Tom Gilson http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16249 Tom Gilson Tue, 21 Dec 2010 02:34:17 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16249 Craig, interesting your take on that. I agree. When I read it, I thought, "how ordinary." JGY, I am sure some of us need to consider the matter afresh; in fact all of us need to do so at times, to reflect on what God has done. I hope we believers in Christ have succeeded in communicating the wonder with which we do regard these things. It has not escaped our attention that a virgin birth is not the norm. Craig, interesting your take on that. I agree. When I read it, I thought, “how ordinary.”

JGY, I am sure some of us need to consider the matter afresh; in fact all of us need to do so at times, to reflect on what God has done. I hope we believers in Christ have succeeded in communicating the wonder with which we do regard these things. It has not escaped our attention that a virgin birth is not the norm.

]]> By: JGY http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16247 JGY Tue, 21 Dec 2010 02:18:46 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16247 I'm relieved you found it less offensive. I am hoping, however, that the crass language will help some readers to consider the matter afresh. When biblical stories and descriptions become so formulaic there's a danger of failing to consider them with even the ordinary levels of reflection and scrutiny appropriate for less unusual events. I’m relieved you found it less offensive. I am hoping, however, that the crass language will help some readers to consider the matter afresh. When biblical stories and descriptions become so formulaic there’s a danger of failing to consider them with even the ordinary levels of reflection and scrutiny appropriate for less unusual events.

]]> By: Craig Payne http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16246 Craig Payne Tue, 21 Dec 2010 02:07:33 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16246 Dear JGY: So crassly stated as to be rather more dull than offensive. However, your second option is still true: God Himself brought about the life of His Word inside a human woman's womb. It's called a miracle. Dear JGY: So crassly stated as to be rather more dull than offensive. However, your second option is still true: God Himself brought about the life of His Word inside a human woman’s womb. It’s called a miracle.

]]> By: JGY http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16238 JGY Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:13:59 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16238 So either Jesus was really a woman conceived via parthenogenesis; or God himself divinely impregnates people; or someone had a little prenuptial fun with Mary. So either Jesus was really a woman conceived via parthenogenesis; or God himself divinely impregnates people; or someone had a little prenuptial fun with Mary.

]]> By: jm http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16234 jm Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:16:13 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16234 Craig, My memory of Genesis 3 curses was that the curse was severe pains in childbirth, and I had thought that this meant without the fall, childbirth would have been pain free. I hadn't read the curse as increasing pre-existing pain, but rather causing new severe pain. Thanks for the correction. I recall once hearing a sermon on 2 labor pains of Genesis 3. Women would now have severe labor pains in childbirth; men would have pain in labor, namely the pain in toiling for their food. In no way do I think that Mary or Jesus never experienced pain. I just thought Mary got a pass on severe labor pains. JM Craig,

My memory of Genesis 3 curses was that the curse was severe pains in childbirth, and I had thought that this meant without the fall, childbirth would have been pain free. I hadn’t read the curse as increasing pre-existing pain, but rather causing new severe pain. Thanks for the correction.

I recall once hearing a sermon on 2 labor pains of Genesis 3. Women would now have severe labor pains in childbirth; men would have pain in labor, namely the pain in toiling for their food.

In no way do I think that Mary or Jesus never experienced pain. I just thought Mary got a pass on severe labor pains.

JM

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16233 pentamom Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:41:06 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16233 And Jesus would have suffered no pain, either. Which is obviously false. So I think the premises are lacking. And Jesus would have suffered no pain, either. Which is obviously false. So I think the premises are lacking.

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16232 pentamom Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:40:09 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16232 jm -- besides what Craig said, all pain is a result of the curse of sin. If Mary had been free of sin, and being free of sin removes the pain of childbirth, it would also remove all other pain, and Mary would have suffered no pain of any sort. But we know that was not the case, nor is it even argued in Catholic theology. jm — besides what Craig said, all pain is a result of the curse of sin. If Mary had been free of sin, and being free of sin removes the pain of childbirth, it would also remove all other pain, and Mary would have suffered no pain of any sort. But we know that was not the case, nor is it even argued in Catholic theology.

]]> By: Craig Hurst http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16231 Craig Hurst Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:48:39 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16231 Jim, is this you speaking or are you conveying what others might believe? The curse on Eve was not pain in childbearing period. It was "increased" pain in childbearing. Jim, is this you speaking or are you conveying what others might believe? The curse on Eve was not pain in childbearing period. It was “increased” pain in childbearing.

]]> By: jm http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16230 jm Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:34:51 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16230 If you allow extra-Biblical stories and include the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (namely, that Mary was conceived without original sin), then Mary (freed from the curse of original sin) was not to suffer the pains of childbirth (the punishment given Eve and all women as a result of disobedience). This means that either Mary had a pain-free vaginal delivery or that Jesus came out another way. I like to think that the Holy Spirit who impregnated her also was the Holy Anesthesiologist who gave her some really good stuff to facilitate a pain-free vaginal delivery. If you allow extra-Biblical stories and include the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (namely, that Mary was conceived without original sin), then Mary (freed from the curse of original sin) was not to suffer the pains of childbirth (the punishment given Eve and all women as a result of disobedience).

This means that either Mary had a pain-free vaginal delivery or that Jesus came out another way.

I like to think that the Holy Spirit who impregnated her also was the Holy Anesthesiologist who gave her some really good stuff to facilitate a pain-free vaginal delivery.

]]> By: donsands http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16185 donsands Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:22:25 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16185 "Now the conception, that’s another thing." "When his [Jesus] mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit." Miraculous. And it's incomprehensible that God, the creator of the universe would become part of His creation; "being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Phil. 2:7-8 "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,..." Rom. 8:3 Have a wonderful Advent Sunday in worshipping our newborn King, Christ our Lord. “Now the conception, that’s another thing.”

“When his [Jesus] mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.”

Miraculous. And it’s incomprehensible that God, the creator of the universe would become part of His creation; “being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (Phil. 2:7-8

“By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,…” Rom. 8:3

Have a wonderful Advent Sunday in worshipping our newborn King, Christ our Lord.

]]> By: pentamom http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16183 pentamom Sat, 18 Dec 2010 16:02:13 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16183 RS -- the key phrase is "in the Bible." ;-) RS — the key phrase is “in the Bible.” ;-)

]]> By: Bret Lythgoe http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/12/pondering-the-lack-of-miraculous-births-in-the-bible/#comment-16180 Bret Lythgoe Sat, 18 Dec 2010 14:59:04 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9741#comment-16180 Craig Payne :) Craig Payne :)

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