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	<title>Comments on: There’s More to the Story: The Subculture of Women’s Ministry</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%E2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%E2%80%99s-ministry/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15127</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 16:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15127</guid>
		<description>Those evangelical Protestants who are confused might benefit from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Sermons/Women-in-the-Church-and-Silence-in-the-Church&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; and the other resources available there for some biblical arguments from a Reformed view.

It&#039;s true there will be many doctrinal differences between various Protestant denominations that may appear confusing if one is used to an authoritative magisterium governing all doctrine infallibly in theory, but then we&#039;re talking about Protestantism itself, which is a different topic, and not only that schism, but the East-West one as well which happened before the Reformation and likewise suffers from &quot;confusion&quot; or difference in doctrine and sacramental life.  

Lastly, simpler solutions are not always better in a complex world, though sometimes they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those evangelical Protestants who are confused might benefit from <a href="http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Sermons/Women-in-the-Church-and-Silence-in-the-Church" rel="nofollow">this</a> and the other resources available there for some biblical arguments from a Reformed view.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true there will be many doctrinal differences between various Protestant denominations that may appear confusing if one is used to an authoritative magisterium governing all doctrine infallibly in theory, but then we&#8217;re talking about Protestantism itself, which is a different topic, and not only that schism, but the East-West one as well which happened before the Reformation and likewise suffers from &#8220;confusion&#8221; or difference in doctrine and sacramental life.  </p>
<p>Lastly, simpler solutions are not always better in a complex world, though sometimes they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Holly Ordway</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15125</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly Ordway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 05:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15125</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll echo orthodoxdj and Alison. I&#039;m an Anglo-Catholic with a lot of Evangelical Protestant friends, and I&#039;ve seen what a struggle it is for some of my women friends to discern their place in the teaching structure of their (Protestant) churches. For me, it&#039;s been entirely straightforward. I&#039;m called to the life of the mind, and to teach -- so I study, and I teach at my church (to both men and women). I do so under the authority of my (male) priest. No ambiguity there - my ministry is, and will always be, a lay ministry, subordinate to the ordained (male) ministry leadership of my priest(s). As a result, I am free to develop and use my gifts without anxiety. Since there&#039;s absolutely no question of me thinking that I could be a priest myself, my priest can encourage and mentor me in my teaching without thinking that he&#039;s sending mixed messages about my role in the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll echo orthodoxdj and Alison. I&#8217;m an Anglo-Catholic with a lot of Evangelical Protestant friends, and I&#8217;ve seen what a struggle it is for some of my women friends to discern their place in the teaching structure of their (Protestant) churches. For me, it&#8217;s been entirely straightforward. I&#8217;m called to the life of the mind, and to teach &#8212; so I study, and I teach at my church (to both men and women). I do so under the authority of my (male) priest. No ambiguity there &#8211; my ministry is, and will always be, a lay ministry, subordinate to the ordained (male) ministry leadership of my priest(s). As a result, I am free to develop and use my gifts without anxiety. Since there&#8217;s absolutely no question of me thinking that I could be a priest myself, my priest can encourage and mentor me in my teaching without thinking that he&#8217;s sending mixed messages about my role in the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Alison</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15119</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15119</guid>
		<description>This was a very insightful post.  I am an Orthodox Christian, and I would shy away from these conferences if they were as big in the Orthodox world.  At the risk of causing offense to some, there are several other female speakers who focus so much on self-esteem and how women need to find their self-esteem from what they read in Scripture--and these speakers turn me off.

I want to read Scripture, understand theology, understand the context within which Scripture was written, and understand church history.  And these are things that men tend to be more interested in than women (I know that is a stereotype, but I find it to be true).  I do also read Scripture because I ecounter God there and because He speaks to me there--so there is an emotional, spiritual element for me which I think should not be separated from my devotional life--but my faith does not always rely on feelings and emotions.  And I want to delve deeper into theology.

I feel fortunate because I have a knowledgable priest and educated friends (Protestants in addition to Orthodox and Catholics) who guide me and lead me to works of theology that will challenge me in my understanding of Scripture and the Church.  And I honestly believe there are some wonderful resources out there written by educated Evangelicals; however, I don&#039;t see or read about women who take advantage of these resources too often.  Men are the ones--for whatever reason--who predominantly utilize these resources, which is really a shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a very insightful post.  I am an Orthodox Christian, and I would shy away from these conferences if they were as big in the Orthodox world.  At the risk of causing offense to some, there are several other female speakers who focus so much on self-esteem and how women need to find their self-esteem from what they read in Scripture&#8211;and these speakers turn me off.</p>
<p>I want to read Scripture, understand theology, understand the context within which Scripture was written, and understand church history.  And these are things that men tend to be more interested in than women (I know that is a stereotype, but I find it to be true).  I do also read Scripture because I ecounter God there and because He speaks to me there&#8211;so there is an emotional, spiritual element for me which I think should not be separated from my devotional life&#8211;but my faith does not always rely on feelings and emotions.  And I want to delve deeper into theology.</p>
<p>I feel fortunate because I have a knowledgable priest and educated friends (Protestants in addition to Orthodox and Catholics) who guide me and lead me to works of theology that will challenge me in my understanding of Scripture and the Church.  And I honestly believe there are some wonderful resources out there written by educated Evangelicals; however, I don&#8217;t see or read about women who take advantage of these resources too often.  Men are the ones&#8211;for whatever reason&#8211;who predominantly utilize these resources, which is really a shame.</p>
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		<title>By: Orthodoxdj</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15118</link>
		<dc:creator>Orthodoxdj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15118</guid>
		<description>This is where Orthodoxy and Catholicism make more sense. If it is the case that by definition a priest is a male, then it doesn&#039;t matter how many conferences there are for women, nor does it matter how much a woman teaches. There is no usurpation of authority because Sacraments flow exclusively through the priesthood (the lone exception being baptism which can be administered by anyone, although only under extreme circumstances should it be the case that one is not baptized by a priest). This allows women to be free exercise their gifts in ministry be it teaching, preaching, etc. 

In Protestantism there is often a lot of confusion about who is supposed to do what and to what extent. Outside of a Sacramental understanding of the Church, life, and the sexes, the framework of meaning collapses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is where Orthodoxy and Catholicism make more sense. If it is the case that by definition a priest is a male, then it doesn&#8217;t matter how many conferences there are for women, nor does it matter how much a woman teaches. There is no usurpation of authority because Sacraments flow exclusively through the priesthood (the lone exception being baptism which can be administered by anyone, although only under extreme circumstances should it be the case that one is not baptized by a priest). This allows women to be free exercise their gifts in ministry be it teaching, preaching, etc. </p>
<p>In Protestantism there is often a lot of confusion about who is supposed to do what and to what extent. Outside of a Sacramental understanding of the Church, life, and the sexes, the framework of meaning collapses.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15115</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15115</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Here is where we need to firmly disagree with Worthen.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Whaaaa?  No &quot;gabby intimacy&quot; ala Oprah so as to avoid the crudely blunt statement that there is firm disagreement with Worthen?  Whoa.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Nothing about a woman taking the lead to teach and mentor &lt;b&gt;other women&lt;/b&gt; is a co-opting of “feminist ideas” but rather a fulfillment of the Titus 2 mandate and the Great Commission. There is nothing unbiblical or even extra-biblical in this context.&lt;/i&gt;

Quite right.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;As well, there is no claim to the office of pastor and—I’ll go out on a limb here—&lt;b&gt;women speakers who identify as complementarians are also willingly submitting the content of their teaching to the authority of their own pastoral leadership.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Yes.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Here is where we need to firmly disagree with Worthen.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Whaaaa?  No &#8220;gabby intimacy&#8221; ala Oprah so as to avoid the crudely blunt statement that there is firm disagreement with Worthen?  Whoa.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Nothing about a woman taking the lead to teach and mentor <b>other women</b> is a co-opting of “feminist ideas” but rather a fulfillment of the Titus 2 mandate and the Great Commission. There is nothing unbiblical or even extra-biblical in this context.</i></p>
<p>Quite right.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;As well, there is no claim to the office of pastor and—I’ll go out on a limb here—<b>women speakers who identify as complementarians are also willingly submitting the content of their teaching to the authority of their own pastoral leadership.</b></i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15114</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15114</guid>
		<description>Very good essay.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good essay.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Flashing</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15113</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Flashing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15113</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark. I, too, was generally pleased with Worthen&#039;s piece...there&#039;s no surprise in her desire to make it appear that womens ministry is trying to borrow from secular feminism. But I hope she&#039;s able to see the new brand of women&#039;s ministry that focuses on the life of the mind and not the fleeting experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark. I, too, was generally pleased with Worthen&#8217;s piece&#8230;there&#8217;s no surprise in her desire to make it appear that womens ministry is trying to borrow from secular feminism. But I hope she&#8217;s able to see the new brand of women&#8217;s ministry that focuses on the life of the mind and not the fleeting experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/11/there%e2%80%99s-more-to-the-story-the-subculture-of-women%e2%80%99s-ministry/#comment-15112</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=9454#comment-15112</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your analysis. I was surprised (given the source) how evenhanded the NYT article was. Ms Worthen clearly has had a significant exposure to the evangelical culture, and seems to not take much out of context.

&quot;Between the pulpit and the kitchen&quot; is a good description of where my own wife stands. She is equally at home at a &quot;Women in the Word&quot; workshop or the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. In fact, she sat in on the elder training in my (male-led) church to gain a better understanding of the Westminster Confession of Faith, since she teaches the corresponding Shorter Catechism to the first- and second-graders in Sunday School.

Still, thirty years ago she promised (despite the scorn of my Aunt Helen) to &quot;obey&quot;, and she has found no reason yet to break that vow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your analysis. I was surprised (given the source) how evenhanded the NYT article was. Ms Worthen clearly has had a significant exposure to the evangelical culture, and seems to not take much out of context.</p>
<p>&#8220;Between the pulpit and the kitchen&#8221; is a good description of where my own wife stands. She is equally at home at a &#8220;Women in the Word&#8221; workshop or the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. In fact, she sat in on the elder training in my (male-led) church to gain a better understanding of the Westminster Confession of Faith, since she teaches the corresponding Shorter Catechism to the first- and second-graders in Sunday School.</p>
<p>Still, thirty years ago she promised (despite the scorn of my Aunt Helen) to &#8220;obey&#8221;, and she has found no reason yet to break that vow.</p>
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