Comments on: Podcast Transcript of Exploring the Canon with Dr. Mark Olson

By: HC

HC — Sat, 23 Oct 2010 11:02:01 +0000

But that’s just it, they (the Apostles) knew they were The Prophets successors and wrote with the same authority…as shown by the other references I quoted in the last post

By: david c

david c — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:03:31 +0000

HC — I am confused. The quote you say is Paul quoting Luke as ‘Scripture’ is ~Jesus~ quoting Deuteronomy 25:4. In fact Paul quotes the same passage in 1Corinthians 9:9 as being “written in the Law of Moses”.

The “laborer deserving his wages” seems also to be Jesus’ allusion to Deut. 24.14-15.

It really does not do any substantive damage to the doctrine of inspiration to allow that Paul may not have understood his writing to be self-evidently “Scripture”. In fact, if he did think of his writings that way, why appeal to Scripture (the Old Testament, for him) as authoritative? If he knew that his writings were in themselves authoritative Scripture then there would have been no need to appeal to any other authority.

I have a very high view of Scripture but I don’t think it requires me to believe that the writers of the NT knew at the time of writing that what they were writing was to be understood in the same exact was as the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings….

By: HC

HC — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:23:04 +0000

If Peter knew it about with Paul’s writing, then most certainly so did Paul. John makes mention of his writing carrying that kind of authority in his Gospel and in his epistles, as well as the Revelation. And just as they knew when they were speaking the Word of the Lord, they would have also recognized that SAME authority when writing it.

(Heb 2:2-4) “For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, {3} how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. {4} God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”

(1 Th 2:13) “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”

(Rev 1:2-3) “Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. {3} Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”

Paul quotes Luke as “scripture”:
(1 Tim 5:18) “For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”"

(Luke 10:7) “Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.”

By: N.W. Clerk

N.W. Clerk — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:07:38 +0000

Yes, readers did acknowledge apostolic authority — that was an essential step in how we got the canon, as Olson described. You still have yet to clarify what evidence leads you to conclude with such absolute certainty that the New Testament authors generally “knew their product to be scripture” and were “well aware” of its inspiration at the time they were writing it. When Paul said that “all Scripture is breathed out by God” (2 Tim 3.16), he was speaking to Timothy about the Old Testament, even though in the fullness of time Paul’s statement would apply also to what became the New Testament, including the very letter in which Paul admonished Timothy about scriptural authority. Did Paul know when he wrote to Timothy that this letter would itself become scripture? I don’t pretend to know, but you still have yet to show why it’s unreasonable — much less “wrong!” or “silly” — to believe that Paul did not know when he wrote the letter that it would become scripture, although God certainly knew it all along.

By: HC

HC — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:13:59 +0000

For the record, I did not drop my “slipshod extension of 2 Peter’s view of Paul’s writings.” Apostolic authority was acknowledged by the readers as well as the writers. They knew their product to be scripture. They were well aware of “God-breathed-ness” of their writings.

By: N.W. Clerk

N.W. Clerk — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:09:46 +0000

You might be right. And then again you might not. Either way, you provide scant evidence or logic to support your argument that views contrary to yours are indeed so patently “wrong!” (the claim to which I first responded) or “silly” (your fallback position after dropping your slipshod extension of 2 Peter’s view of Paul’s writings, on the one hand, to 2 Peter’s view of 2 Peter itself, on the other hand). Your conclusions may be correct, but — despite how you present them — they are not necessarily the only reasonable answer.

By: HC

HC — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:50:30 +0000

You REALLY believe that the great Apostle who wrote of the discernment of things spiritual in his letter to the Corinthians did not know when the Spirit of God was upon him to write what would be scripture??? That’s just silly. They knew that their writings had the same authority.

By: N.W. Clerk

N.W. Clerk — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 18:51:26 +0000

@HC You are just a tad too definitive on this. The fact that the author of 2 Peter suggests that Paul’s letters are scripture does not mean that Paul thought they had that status when he wrote them (cf. 1 Cor 7.12). Moreover, there is nothing in this passage to suggest that the author of 2 Peter wrote these words thinking “I bet my book gets added to Isaiah and Jeremiah”; instead, 2 Peter is referring to Paul’s writings, not his own.

By: HC

HC — Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:44:30 +0000

Gayle: Right, right. And do you think the writers of these books understood that what they were writing was going to join Scripture?
Mark: No. I don’t think they thought that at all. I do think they believed that they were writing something very important. And that they believed that God was – they might have even said inspiring them – but I don’t think any of them consciously were saying, “I bet my book gets added to Isaiah and Jeremiah.”

This is wrong! Peter seemed to think so!

(2 Pet 3:16) “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”