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	<title>Comments on: The Problem of Moral Revival</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: &#8220;The Problem of Moral Revival&#8221; - Thinking Christian</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13829</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;The Problem of Moral Revival&#8221; - Thinking Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13829</guid>
		<description>[...] J. Flashing took an insightful look at &#8220;The Problem of Moral Revival&#8221; on the Evangel blog last Wednesday, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] J. Flashing took an insightful look at &#8220;The Problem of Moral Revival&#8221; on the Evangel blog last Wednesday, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: R Hampton</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13808</link>
		<dc:creator>R Hampton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13808</guid>
		<description>&quot;The swift undercurrent of moral decay continues to take most Christians by surprise while our pragmatic approach to morality rooted in tradition and dependent on consensus forces us down the slippery slope of relativism&quot;

Because the Catholic and Orthodox churches do not rely on consensus to determine morality, it seems to me that you are speaking strictly of an American Protestant moral relativism. Yet the disestablishment of authority was fundamental to the founding Protestantism. So I don&#039;t see how a singular and/or unified Protestant moral revival is even conceivable, given that individual relationships with Scripture are the only necessary religious institution. And I&#039;m not referring to relatively minor doctrinal matters --  how the sin of taking life is understoo and practiced diverges considerably from Southern Baptists to Quaker, for example. 

Protestant relativism is unavoidable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The swift undercurrent of moral decay continues to take most Christians by surprise while our pragmatic approach to morality rooted in tradition and dependent on consensus forces us down the slippery slope of relativism&#8221;</p>
<p>Because the Catholic and Orthodox churches do not rely on consensus to determine morality, it seems to me that you are speaking strictly of an American Protestant moral relativism. Yet the disestablishment of authority was fundamental to the founding Protestantism. So I don&#8217;t see how a singular and/or unified Protestant moral revival is even conceivable, given that individual relationships with Scripture are the only necessary religious institution. And I&#8217;m not referring to relatively minor doctrinal matters &#8212;  how the sin of taking life is understoo and practiced diverges considerably from Southern Baptists to Quaker, for example. </p>
<p>Protestant relativism is unavoidable.</p>
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		<title>By: Collin Brendemuehl</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13765</link>
		<dc:creator>Collin Brendemuehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13765</guid>
		<description>You theocon! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You theocon! :-)</p>
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		<title>By: donsands</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13751</link>
		<dc:creator>donsands</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 04:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13751</guid>
		<description>&quot;Christians should be engaged in culture with a gospel-centered prophetic voice of truth.&quot;

Amen sister. And so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Christians should be engaged in culture with a gospel-centered prophetic voice of truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen sister. And so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13737</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13737</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;That doesn’t mean, however, that as Christians engage issues they ought to act like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t think that Christians, by and large, are acting like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias. 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;the reasons why we desire moral revival but why we continue to fail.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

If you want to look at it in terms of &quot;failure&quot;, then let&#039;s realize that there&#039;s a relentless Enemy who&#039;s contributing signficantly to that &quot;failure&quot;.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I believe we can actually separate how Christians engage moral conversations from the conversation about our form of government.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Is the moral conversation of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/home.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Manhattan Declaration&lt;/a&gt; sufficient?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;That doesn’t mean, however, that as Christians engage issues they ought to act like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Christians, by and large, are acting like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias. </p>
<p><i>&#8220;the reasons why we desire moral revival but why we continue to fail.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>If you want to look at it in terms of &#8220;failure&#8221;, then let&#8217;s realize that there&#8217;s a relentless Enemy who&#8217;s contributing signficantly to that &#8220;failure&#8221;.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I believe we can actually separate how Christians engage moral conversations from the conversation about our form of government.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Is the moral conversation of the <a href="http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/home.aspx" rel="nofollow">Manhattan Declaration</a> sufficient?</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah J. Flashing</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13735</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah J. Flashing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13735</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not arguing for a theocratic state, but for intellectual honesty regarding the source of morality. A purely Christian consensus is untenable, so I don&#039;t foresee an optimal situation for the institution of a theocracy.That doesn&#039;t mean, however, that as Christians engage issues they ought to act like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias. This post is focused narrowly on 1) Christian commitment to a Christian epistemology and 2) the reasons why we desire moral revival but why we continue to fail. Christians should be engaged in culture with a gospel-centered prophetic voice of truth. In this regard, a true spiritual revival would eventually yield the fruit of true moral revival. I believe we can actually separate how Christians engage moral conversations from the conversation about our form of government. This post need not go that far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not arguing for a theocratic state, but for intellectual honesty regarding the source of morality. A purely Christian consensus is untenable, so I don&#8217;t foresee an optimal situation for the institution of a theocracy.That doesn&#8217;t mean, however, that as Christians engage issues they ought to act like the secularist who claims to have no worldview bias. This post is focused narrowly on 1) Christian commitment to a Christian epistemology and 2) the reasons why we desire moral revival but why we continue to fail. Christians should be engaged in culture with a gospel-centered prophetic voice of truth. In this regard, a true spiritual revival would eventually yield the fruit of true moral revival. I believe we can actually separate how Christians engage moral conversations from the conversation about our form of government. This post need not go that far.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13732</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 16:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13732</guid>
		<description>Sarah,

Suppose you received a well-intentioned critique that your post seems to be a call for a Christian theocracy.  Or that you&#039;re subtly promoting Christian theocracy by asking Christians to only support activities that explicitly reference the God of biblical Christianity as its foundation instead of a &quot;generic god of politically correct conservative pluralism.&quot;

How would you respond?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah,</p>
<p>Suppose you received a well-intentioned critique that your post seems to be a call for a Christian theocracy.  Or that you&#8217;re subtly promoting Christian theocracy by asking Christians to only support activities that explicitly reference the God of biblical Christianity as its foundation instead of a &#8220;generic god of politically correct conservative pluralism.&#8221;</p>
<p>How would you respond?</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13729</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13729</guid>
		<description>I wonder if it would help to distinguish (a) one&#039;s approach to public policy change, dependent upon politics and consensus building, from (b) one&#039;s personal view about morality, in all its idiosyncrasy.  

Is it realistic for Sarah Palin (or a Barack Obama, or a Mitt Romney) to achieve political change by calling on people to share and enforce her own highly idiosyncratic private views about morality?  

More importantly, would this approach even be desirable? Imagine the dysfunction as each individual tries to gain political dominance for her own, highly specific, private moral views. Then, if some of these people should succeed, imagine the tyranny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if it would help to distinguish (a) one&#8217;s approach to public policy change, dependent upon politics and consensus building, from (b) one&#8217;s personal view about morality, in all its idiosyncrasy.  </p>
<p>Is it realistic for Sarah Palin (or a Barack Obama, or a Mitt Romney) to achieve political change by calling on people to share and enforce her own highly idiosyncratic private views about morality?  </p>
<p>More importantly, would this approach even be desirable? Imagine the dysfunction as each individual tries to gain political dominance for her own, highly specific, private moral views. Then, if some of these people should succeed, imagine the tyranny.</p>
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		<title>By: EM</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13727</link>
		<dc:creator>EM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13727</guid>
		<description>very well said, Sarah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very well said, Sarah.</p>
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		<title>By: donsands</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/the-problem-of-moral-revival/#comment-13725</link>
		<dc:creator>donsands</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8675#comment-13725</guid>
		<description>&quot;..we tend to become more desensitized to the sin that grieves our Lord and Savior when our primary arguments against these public matters are more about their impracticality.&quot;

I have a young girl in my neighborhood who had her first child when she was 13 years old, her second baby at 15. 

Her sin is ugly and ungodly, but we tend to not talk about that aspect of her sin, but applaud her not aborting her babies. And also simply overlooking her sin, and reaching out with baby clothes, and so forth.

If we do preach the sin of fornication in a case like this, then we are considered mean and un-Christian.

Speaking the truth with compassion is very difficult at times, but the Church needs to learn how to do it right.

Thanks for the excellent post. A lot of good points made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;..we tend to become more desensitized to the sin that grieves our Lord and Savior when our primary arguments against these public matters are more about their impracticality.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have a young girl in my neighborhood who had her first child when she was 13 years old, her second baby at 15. </p>
<p>Her sin is ugly and ungodly, but we tend to not talk about that aspect of her sin, but applaud her not aborting her babies. And also simply overlooking her sin, and reaching out with baby clothes, and so forth.</p>
<p>If we do preach the sin of fornication in a case like this, then we are considered mean and un-Christian.</p>
<p>Speaking the truth with compassion is very difficult at times, but the Church needs to learn how to do it right.</p>
<p>Thanks for the excellent post. A lot of good points made.</p>
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