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	<title>Comments on: Adult Stem Cell Breakthrough, Bad Stem Cell Thinking</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14722</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Oct 2010 04:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14722</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s interesting. But why do these people hang so much on &quot;conception&quot;?  

All of these more or less biological concepts may themselves be rather vague, and, from a moral point of view, insignificant.  Without settling any of the disputes about the extension of such concepts, we can still ask the important question directly--while still acknowledging &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; of the fine-grained biological details: at what point, and under what circumstances, does destroying the entity (described in all the fine-grained biological detail) become morally equivalent to murdering an adult human being?  In other words, we don&#039;t have to assume that normative significance attaches to any of the higher-level biological categories (why should we?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting. But why do these people hang so much on &#8220;conception&#8221;?  </p>
<p>All of these more or less biological concepts may themselves be rather vague, and, from a moral point of view, insignificant.  Without settling any of the disputes about the extension of such concepts, we can still ask the important question directly&#8211;while still acknowledging <i>all</i> of the fine-grained biological details: at what point, and under what circumstances, does destroying the entity (described in all the fine-grained biological detail) become morally equivalent to murdering an adult human being?  In other words, we don&#8217;t have to assume that normative significance attaches to any of the higher-level biological categories (why should we?).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14721</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14721</guid>
		<description>The reason why they&#039;re hesitant to call it an organism is its non-living features. It&#039;s not actually developing or doing anything until implantation. There are several stages between the initial penetration of the egg wall by the sperm and the implantation, and it&#039;s not clear which one of them even counts as conception. So if conception is the initial point of moral status, it&#039;s got no clear moment when it even is. That&#039;s what biologist Ken Miller said was his reasoning, anyway, when I tried to press him on the question of whether an embryo is a human organism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why they&#8217;re hesitant to call it an organism is its non-living features. It&#8217;s not actually developing or doing anything until implantation. There are several stages between the initial penetration of the egg wall by the sperm and the implantation, and it&#8217;s not clear which one of them even counts as conception. So if conception is the initial point of moral status, it&#8217;s got no clear moment when it even is. That&#8217;s what biologist Ken Miller said was his reasoning, anyway, when I tried to press him on the question of whether an embryo is a human organism.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14369</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 02:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14369</guid>
		<description>The moral issue isn&#039;t decided by these rather silly terminological disputes.  There may be rhetorical advantages here and there, but no one who engages with such questions (e.g., is a fertilized egg cell an organism?) is really making a serious argument, one way or the other.  I&#039;d</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The moral issue isn&#8217;t decided by these rather silly terminological disputes.  There may be rhetorical advantages here and there, but no one who engages with such questions (e.g., is a fertilized egg cell an organism?) is really making a serious argument, one way or the other.  I&#8217;d</p>
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		<title>By: Amy K. Hall</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14363</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy K. Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14363</guid>
		<description>Sarah, your point that &quot;no scientist wants to work with dead ones&quot; is exactly right. 

Jeremy, it&#039;s hard for me to understand how they can justify to themselves that it&#039;s not an organism. It&#039;s amazing the intellectual tricks people can play on themselves to avoid the truth when it&#039;s inconvenient for them.

I just noticed that the &quot;killing human life&quot; line was removed from The Washington Post. I linked above to a couple places where it&#039;s still out there from other online newspapers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, your point that &#8220;no scientist wants to work with dead ones&#8221; is exactly right. </p>
<p>Jeremy, it&#8217;s hard for me to understand how they can justify to themselves that it&#8217;s not an organism. It&#8217;s amazing the intellectual tricks people can play on themselves to avoid the truth when it&#8217;s inconvenient for them.</p>
<p>I just noticed that the &#8220;killing human life&#8221; line was removed from The Washington Post. I linked above to a couple places where it&#8217;s still out there from other online newspapers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Flashing</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14361</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Flashing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14361</guid>
		<description>&quot;Embryos, with time, become you me.&quot; Actually, that&#039;s the argument from the proponents of embryo research. They aren&#039;t us, they just have the potential. The reality is, embryos ARE you and me, just a really young, tiny version, but exactly where they are suppose to be at that stage.

the valuable-human life distinction is helpful because it does get to the heart of the matter (great post, btw!). One other that is helpful is living human embryo vs. dead human embryo, because no scientist wants to work with dead ones.

Personhood is a philosophical category that science in and of itself can&#039;t speak to thinks it can. The worldview of those in science has got to be a top priority for the church because horizontal ethics will always leave the embryo unprotected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Embryos, with time, become you me.&#8221; Actually, that&#8217;s the argument from the proponents of embryo research. They aren&#8217;t us, they just have the potential. The reality is, embryos ARE you and me, just a really young, tiny version, but exactly where they are suppose to be at that stage.</p>
<p>the valuable-human life distinction is helpful because it does get to the heart of the matter (great post, btw!). One other that is helpful is living human embryo vs. dead human embryo, because no scientist wants to work with dead ones.</p>
<p>Personhood is a philosophical category that science in and of itself can&#8217;t speak to thinks it can. The worldview of those in science has got to be a top priority for the church because horizontal ethics will always leave the embryo unprotected.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14356</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14356</guid>
		<description>Actually, the predominant view among those who have no problem killing embryos is that they don&#039;t become organisms until they&#039;re implanted and start developing. I&#039;m not sure if they&#039;d say it&#039;s alive. I suppose they might. Certainly it&#039;s human, but so is my fingernail. The question is whether it&#039;s an organism, and they shy away from answering that. They think there&#039;s no sharp line between being an organism and not being an organism, and it&#039;s not clearly one until it develops. I tried to press Ken Miller on this, and he didn&#039;t bite. He wouldn&#039;t answer the question, claiming that the vagueness of what it is to be an organism doesn&#039;t allow for a clear answer.

I do think it&#039;s crazy to say that I wasn&#039;t once a yet-to-be-implanted embryo, though. It&#039;s not as if the embryo stopped existing for me to come into existence. I was once an embryo. But the dispute with embryos isn&#039;t as clear-cut among scientists as the dispute about developing fetuses. The latter are clearly human organisms, and people dispute whether they have full moral status. The former aren&#039;t universally agreed to be human organisms to begin with, because they hesitate to say they&#039;re even organisms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the predominant view among those who have no problem killing embryos is that they don&#8217;t become organisms until they&#8217;re implanted and start developing. I&#8217;m not sure if they&#8217;d say it&#8217;s alive. I suppose they might. Certainly it&#8217;s human, but so is my fingernail. The question is whether it&#8217;s an organism, and they shy away from answering that. They think there&#8217;s no sharp line between being an organism and not being an organism, and it&#8217;s not clearly one until it develops. I tried to press Ken Miller on this, and he didn&#8217;t bite. He wouldn&#8217;t answer the question, claiming that the vagueness of what it is to be an organism doesn&#8217;t allow for a clear answer.</p>
<p>I do think it&#8217;s crazy to say that I wasn&#8217;t once a yet-to-be-implanted embryo, though. It&#8217;s not as if the embryo stopped existing for me to come into existence. I was once an embryo. But the dispute with embryos isn&#8217;t as clear-cut among scientists as the dispute about developing fetuses. The latter are clearly human organisms, and people dispute whether they have full moral status. The former aren&#8217;t universally agreed to be human organisms to begin with, because they hesitate to say they&#8217;re even organisms.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14352</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14352</guid>
		<description>C. Ehrlich: an embryo is a human being, at its earliest stage of development. Skin cells are parts of human beings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C. Ehrlich: an embryo is a human being, at its earliest stage of development. Skin cells are parts of human beings.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14351</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14351</guid>
		<description>C.Ehrlich: the flaw in your argument is clear: a skin cell will remain forever a skin cell. Embryos, with time, become you me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C.Ehrlich: the flaw in your argument is clear: a skin cell will remain forever a skin cell. Embryos, with time, become you me.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/adult-stem-cell-breakthrough-bad-stem-cell-thinking/#comment-14349</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8974#comment-14349</guid>
		<description>If we&#039;re going to get nit picky about terminology, let&#039;s remember that &quot;human&quot; and &quot;human life&quot; also describe things that pro-lifers kill needlessly and on a daily basis.  Living human skin cells are both alive and they are human, and, with just a little more care, pro-lifers could kill far fewer of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we&#8217;re going to get nit picky about terminology, let&#8217;s remember that &#8220;human&#8221; and &#8220;human life&#8221; also describe things that pro-lifers kill needlessly and on a daily basis.  Living human skin cells are both alive and they are human, and, with just a little more care, pro-lifers could kill far fewer of them.</p>
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