<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Abominations</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:35:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14355</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14355</guid>
		<description>Maybe it would help to clarify what &quot;it&quot; refers to. My original claim was that Francis said, &quot;if you already have a reason to regard it as unhealthy, unnatural, and harmful, then disgust is appropriate&quot; and that he wasn&#039;t saying the additional thing you thought he was saying. You then said that the point I was attributing to him was your point and that he was denying it. I responded that it was indeed his point. I&#039;m not sure where in any of that there is a contradiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it would help to clarify what &#8220;it&#8221; refers to. My original claim was that Francis said, &#8220;if you already have a reason to regard it as unhealthy, unnatural, and harmful, then disgust is appropriate&#8221; and that he wasn&#8217;t saying the additional thing you thought he was saying. You then said that the point I was attributing to him was your point and that he was denying it. I responded that it was indeed his point. I&#8217;m not sure where in any of that there is a contradiction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14278</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14278</guid>
		<description>First you&#039;re saying that it wasn&#039;t Francis&#039; point; now you&#039;re saying it was.  

Maybe it would help to clarify your pronoun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First you&#8217;re saying that it wasn&#8217;t Francis&#8217; point; now you&#8217;re saying it was.  </p>
<p>Maybe it would help to clarify your pronoun.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14274</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14274</guid>
		<description>It was his point. Read his comment again. You may have been saying the same thing while thinking you were disagreeing with him, but this was indeed what he was responding to in her work.

I&#039;m well aware that she does other things, and I&#039;m sure he is too. He&#039;s simply responding to one aspect of her work as it bears on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was his point. Read his comment again. You may have been saying the same thing while thinking you were disagreeing with him, but this was indeed what he was responding to in her work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m well aware that she does other things, and I&#8217;m sure he is too. He&#8217;s simply responding to one aspect of her work as it bears on this issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14218</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14218</guid>
		<description>Obviously, Jeremy.  This was &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; point, not Francis&#039;.  Nussbaum writes a lot of things, and obviously I am not trying to defend everything. If you read her work on disgust and homosexuality, you&#039;ll see that many of her arguments and observations are quite independent of the issue which you (and Beckwith) are ascribing to her and complaining about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, Jeremy.  This was <i>my</i> point, not Francis&#8217;.  Nussbaum writes a lot of things, and obviously I am not trying to defend everything. If you read her work on disgust and homosexuality, you&#8217;ll see that many of her arguments and observations are quite independent of the issue which you (and Beckwith) are ascribing to her and complaining about.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14215</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14215</guid>
		<description>He wasn&#039;t making that point, though. He was simply saying that, if you already have a reason to regard it as unhealthy, unnatural, and harmful, then disgust is appropriate. He was responding to Nussbaum&#039;s criticisms, which include positive arguments for accepting homosexuality as perfectly natural on the ground that people who are gay do in fact desire same-sex relationships. His point was explicitly directed at such an argument, pointing out that it begs the question to assume desires alone determine the important questions of identity, rather than nature having the role that the Bible gives to it. So other cases of disgust that aren&#039;t like this are irrelevant. He was talking about the cases where it is like this, in response to an entirely different argument than the one you&#039;re taking him to have tried (and failed) to respond to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He wasn&#8217;t making that point, though. He was simply saying that, if you already have a reason to regard it as unhealthy, unnatural, and harmful, then disgust is appropriate. He was responding to Nussbaum&#8217;s criticisms, which include positive arguments for accepting homosexuality as perfectly natural on the ground that people who are gay do in fact desire same-sex relationships. His point was explicitly directed at such an argument, pointing out that it begs the question to assume desires alone determine the important questions of identity, rather than nature having the role that the Bible gives to it. So other cases of disgust that aren&#8217;t like this are irrelevant. He was talking about the cases where it is like this, in response to an entirely different argument than the one you&#8217;re taking him to have tried (and failed) to respond to.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14212</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14212</guid>
		<description>Jeremy, you seem to be missing the larger point.  If what prompted the use of &quot;abomination&quot; is simply the reaction of disgust, then it&#039;s a dubious move to point to that word &quot;abomination&quot; as evidence that the prohibition in question is intended to be more universal and timeless.  This is because of the particular psychological and normative features of the disgust reaction--features which Francis Beckwith conveniently failed to acknowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy, you seem to be missing the larger point.  If what prompted the use of &#8220;abomination&#8221; is simply the reaction of disgust, then it&#8217;s a dubious move to point to that word &#8220;abomination&#8221; as evidence that the prohibition in question is intended to be more universal and timeless.  This is because of the particular psychological and normative features of the disgust reaction&#8211;features which Francis Beckwith conveniently failed to acknowledge.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14205</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14205</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how that changes anything Frank said. He was commenting on the appropriateness of disgust when it&#039;s against something unworthy of humanity. That&#039;s compatible with disgust being inappropriate when it&#039;s motived unhealthily against things that are perfectly fine. So the only two ways to use this as an objection to what he says is (a) to beg the question against him about whether the action in question is unnatural or (b) to argue against his reasoning for why we should think it to be unnatural, neither of which you did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how that changes anything Frank said. He was commenting on the appropriateness of disgust when it&#8217;s against something unworthy of humanity. That&#8217;s compatible with disgust being inappropriate when it&#8217;s motived unhealthily against things that are perfectly fine. So the only two ways to use this as an objection to what he says is (a) to beg the question against him about whether the action in question is unnatural or (b) to argue against his reasoning for why we should think it to be unnatural, neither of which you did.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14159</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 02:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14159</guid>
		<description>Francis Beckwith,

You offer a conveniently incomplete characterization of disgust:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Disgust is a perfectly natural reaction to that which one viscerally realizes is unworthy of one’s humanity.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I shouldn&#039;t have to point out to you that the sorts of things towards which people react with disgust are highly contingent and culturally sensitive.  The Egyptians of Joseph&#039;s day were apparently disgusted by herdsmen--but herdsmen are hardly &quot;unworthy of one&#039;s humanity.&quot;  (Indeed, in Genesis we read that shepherds were an &quot;abomination&quot; to the Egyptians.)

I also shouldn&#039;t have to point out to you that the visceral reaction of disgust is often a reaction we must resist--regardless of how &quot;natural&quot; it is.  It may be perfectly natural to be disgusted by another person&#039;s physical deformity or disease.  Reacting with disgust towards the leper, however, is not exactly Christlike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francis Beckwith,</p>
<p>You offer a conveniently incomplete characterization of disgust:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Disgust is a perfectly natural reaction to that which one viscerally realizes is unworthy of one’s humanity.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I shouldn&#8217;t have to point out to you that the sorts of things towards which people react with disgust are highly contingent and culturally sensitive.  The Egyptians of Joseph&#8217;s day were apparently disgusted by herdsmen&#8211;but herdsmen are hardly &#8220;unworthy of one&#8217;s humanity.&#8221;  (Indeed, in Genesis we read that shepherds were an &#8220;abomination&#8221; to the Egyptians.)</p>
<p>I also shouldn&#8217;t have to point out to you that the visceral reaction of disgust is often a reaction we must resist&#8211;regardless of how &#8220;natural&#8221; it is.  It may be perfectly natural to be disgusted by another person&#8217;s physical deformity or disease.  Reacting with disgust towards the leper, however, is not exactly Christlike.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14155</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 01:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14155</guid>
		<description>When I&#039;ve seen the shellfish point made against the prohibition of homosexuality, it&#039;s usually taken as a knockdown argument against using scripture to justify such a prohibition. I&#039;ve seen it used exactly that way over and over. Perhaps there are some making the more moderated point that it just shows that the Torah prohibition might not be grounded in nature simply because it uses that word, but then the argument becomes just a different bad argument, i.e. one that ignores that there are other prohibitions in scripture.

On Nussbaum, if anyone is interested in exploring any of her work, I suggest instead the much more valuable book &lt;i&gt;The Fragility of Goodness&lt;/i&gt;, which doesn&#039;t in every way line up with Christian thinking on the matters she discusses, but a good deal of what she says there is of a piece with the Christian doctrine of original sin (at least the Protestant doctrine in the way that Augustine originally used the term), the fallenness of the world in general, and total depravity in specific, both in its general effects on fallen humanity and in the specific ways that it still affects believers who are redeemed (which I think is in some ways similar to the common grace that still affects unbelievers despite their not being the immediate recipients of any salvific grace).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I&#8217;ve seen the shellfish point made against the prohibition of homosexuality, it&#8217;s usually taken as a knockdown argument against using scripture to justify such a prohibition. I&#8217;ve seen it used exactly that way over and over. Perhaps there are some making the more moderated point that it just shows that the Torah prohibition might not be grounded in nature simply because it uses that word, but then the argument becomes just a different bad argument, i.e. one that ignores that there are other prohibitions in scripture.</p>
<p>On Nussbaum, if anyone is interested in exploring any of her work, I suggest instead the much more valuable book <i>The Fragility of Goodness</i>, which doesn&#8217;t in every way line up with Christian thinking on the matters she discusses, but a good deal of what she says there is of a piece with the Christian doctrine of original sin (at least the Protestant doctrine in the way that Augustine originally used the term), the fallenness of the world in general, and total depravity in specific, both in its general effects on fallen humanity and in the specific ways that it still affects believers who are redeemed (which I think is in some ways similar to the common grace that still affects unbelievers despite their not being the immediate recipients of any salvific grace).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14141</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14141</guid>
		<description>Still thinkin&#039;. Got more questions though. What is C.Ehrlich&#039;s view on &#039;morality&#039;? Where, or in what, are these &#039;morals&#039; epistemically grounded? Any others? Might be, still thinkin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still thinkin&#8217;. Got more questions though. What is C.Ehrlich&#8217;s view on &#8216;morality&#8217;? Where, or in what, are these &#8216;morals&#8217; epistemically grounded? Any others? Might be, still thinkin&#8217;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Drake</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14138</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14138</guid>
		<description>C. Ehrlich said:
&quot;One of the general questions raised here is how today’s reader is supposed to determine the intended scope of biblical commands and prohibitions.&quot;

Steve Drake: Interesting question. Thought-inducing. Why would one take it any other way than was taken by the original reader trying to understand the author&#039;s intent? Do the commands and didactic teaching of Scripture change over time and within a culture? 

There&#039;s a bit of a &#039;Hmmm&#039; going in my head at the moment. Why would C. Ehrlich ask this question? What is the motivation behind this question? What are his views of Scripture? Lots of things to think about here, let me think on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C. Ehrlich said:<br />
&#8220;One of the general questions raised here is how today’s reader is supposed to determine the intended scope of biblical commands and prohibitions.&#8221;</p>
<p>Steve Drake: Interesting question. Thought-inducing. Why would one take it any other way than was taken by the original reader trying to understand the author&#8217;s intent? Do the commands and didactic teaching of Scripture change over time and within a culture? </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a bit of a &#8216;Hmmm&#8217; going in my head at the moment. Why would C. Ehrlich ask this question? What is the motivation behind this question? What are his views of Scripture? Lots of things to think about here, let me think on it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daryl</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14135</link>
		<dc:creator>Daryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14135</guid>
		<description>CE,

Abomination or disgust, makes no difference.

if God is disgusted by something, it is sin.

Would God insist that I be disgusted by something that doesn&#039;t disgust him?

I don&#039;t see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CE,</p>
<p>Abomination or disgust, makes no difference.</p>
<p>if God is disgusted by something, it is sin.</p>
<p>Would God insist that I be disgusted by something that doesn&#8217;t disgust him?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14131</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 18:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14131</guid>
		<description>Thanks Francis for your comment.

At the end of the day, I think I&#039;ll pass on Nussbaum&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Francis for your comment.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, I think I&#8217;ll pass on Nussbaum&#8217;s book.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Francis Beckwith</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14128</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Beckwith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14128</guid>
		<description>The Bible, though it includes statutory law, is not merely a book of statutes. Thus, the Deuteronomy prohibition of same-sex relations, unlike the dietary laws, involves the Hebrew-Christian belief in the complementarity of gender. We see this in the Fall (the relationship between Adam and Eve), the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic law through judges and kings and second temple Judaism. And then, the relationship between Christ and his Church is presented as that between a bride groom and his bride. 

Disgust is a perfectly natural reaction to that which one viscerally realizes is unworthy of one&#039;s humanity. So, ironically, contra Nussbaum, one who truly loves, truly cares for, truly wants to see made whole those who gravitate toward same-sex attraction is to elevate the humanity of the other. For to be truly human is to truly understand one&#039;s intrinsic telos and to ask for the grace, patience, and discipline to adjust one&#039;s desires to it. To not recognize this is to think of one&#039;s self as less than human. Thus, Nussbaum, at the end of the day, just begs the question by assuming that our identity is located in our desires rather than in our nature, though flawed and misshapen as it often is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible, though it includes statutory law, is not merely a book of statutes. Thus, the Deuteronomy prohibition of same-sex relations, unlike the dietary laws, involves the Hebrew-Christian belief in the complementarity of gender. We see this in the Fall (the relationship between Adam and Eve), the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic law through judges and kings and second temple Judaism. And then, the relationship between Christ and his Church is presented as that between a bride groom and his bride. </p>
<p>Disgust is a perfectly natural reaction to that which one viscerally realizes is unworthy of one&#8217;s humanity. So, ironically, contra Nussbaum, one who truly loves, truly cares for, truly wants to see made whole those who gravitate toward same-sex attraction is to elevate the humanity of the other. For to be truly human is to truly understand one&#8217;s intrinsic telos and to ask for the grace, patience, and discipline to adjust one&#8217;s desires to it. To not recognize this is to think of one&#8217;s self as less than human. Thus, Nussbaum, at the end of the day, just begs the question by assuming that our identity is located in our desires rather than in our nature, though flawed and misshapen as it often is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: C. Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/09/abominations/#comment-14127</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8810#comment-14127</guid>
		<description>One of the general questions raised here is how today&#039;s reader is supposed to determine the intended scope of biblical commands and prohibitions.  

Some seem to suggest that if something is called an &quot;abomination,&quot; this is supposed to indicate (unless the N.T. explicitly states otherwise) a wider scope of application, grounding the prohibition in something more universal or timeless.  If, however, the concept of the abominable has anything to do with the idea of disgust (as the food restrictions might seem to indicate), the suggestion is dubious.  On this topic, I&#039;d recommend Martha Nussbaum&#039;s &lt;i&gt;From Disgust to Humanity&lt;/i&gt; (Oxford UP, 2010).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the general questions raised here is how today&#8217;s reader is supposed to determine the intended scope of biblical commands and prohibitions.  </p>
<p>Some seem to suggest that if something is called an &#8220;abomination,&#8221; this is supposed to indicate (unless the N.T. explicitly states otherwise) a wider scope of application, grounding the prohibition in something more universal or timeless.  If, however, the concept of the abominable has anything to do with the idea of disgust (as the food restrictions might seem to indicate), the suggestion is dubious.  On this topic, I&#8217;d recommend Martha Nussbaum&#8217;s <i>From Disgust to Humanity</i> (Oxford UP, 2010).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
