There are fear tactics in place to keep you in as well. You are basically made to feel that if you leave these “great men of God” you will lose the blessings and protection of God. Some don’t directly claim this but it is strongly implied.

WoF/PG people often get angry if you point out these issues as if it is ad hominem. But the truth of the matter is this is the very real and practical side of WoF/PG. Observe their leaders lifestyles. They look like they belong in People magazine with the celebs. Then look at the lay people who are struggling always waiting for the day when they will get theirs. But the system is set up so they will not but the leaders will. Why? Because the layman is ALWAYS encouraged to sow into the ministries of the leaders. The layman does not have a 29,000 member church sowing into his/her life like Creflo Dollar.

Once again people get mad about these observations, but Jesus and Paul command us to observe the fruit of the false teachers and prophets so that we can safe guard ourselves, our families, and the Church.

I also heard from some of the WOF proponents on this thread, veiled denigration of thoughtful scholarly study of the Scriptures (accusations of relying on our own minds and not listening to the Spirit). I would point them to “Full Gospel, Fractured Minds?” by Rick Nañez http://www.amazon.com/Full-Gospel-Fractured-Minds-Intellect/dp/0310263085/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282766284&sr=1-1

I also heard the phrase “blessed to be a blessing” tossed around. Too bad the major voices of WOF don’t live like John Wesley, who truly did take the blessings God gave him and gave them away, continuing to live at the same modest level even as his annual income multiplied many times. He calculated what he needed to live on (and not extravagantly, mind you), then gave the rest away. He said, “When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.”

A Different Gospel by D. R. McConnell
Hendrickson Publishers / 1995

The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels
by Gordon Fee

I have read “A Different Gospel” – it is thoroughly researched and clearly shows the actual roots of WOF teaching to be from the metaphysical cults of Christian Science and New Thought. It also proves the plagiarism by Kenneth Hagin of E. W. Kenyon’s writings and provides some evaluation of critical doctrines.

The important focus in evaluation of the doctrines should be their view of the atonement – wherein they maintain that Jesus died “spiritually” and was actually “born again” in hell.

It is evident that the WOF movement as a whole lacks Biblical hermaneutic, contains over-realised eschatology, and when examined carefully alongside the historic faith, contains serious doctrinal error. Its teachings are repudiated even by other charismatic/pentecostal/continuationist denominations such as the Assemblies of God.

My point is clear that it is close to impossible to draw out a full debate from WoF because they discuss in circles and hide behind rhetoric and word games, and have been trained to do so. To answer the original question of the post, “What is the problem with the Prosperity Gospel?” A chaos of rhetoric and word games which are not purely grounded in the overall message of scripture. I understand that this view is offensive but factual none the less.

God Bless you Jeff and may God’s grace be sufficient for you and yours.

Peace be with you.

I have found WoF ministers to be the masters of double talk, word games, and have great abilities in blurring the lines of truth. I say this not as ad hominem but as an observation that every student of the WoF needs to realize and those who are not WoF need to pay attention to. WoF has a way of making it sound all so good and delicious while ignoring the vast portions of scriptures that do not paint it so pretty.

I believe that Jesus is an embarassment to the WoF in many ways as well as Paul in his difficult moments. I think the poverty of certain churches that Paul wrote to is an embarassment. I do not believe you have more than a thread of scriptures…this is a usual cop-out. When I have studied the WoF movement it is always the one dozen scriptures given from you above, KCM’s Bible, the 2005 WoF Prosperity Overflow cd collection I have and listened to many times. The other scriptures are taken out of context.

Now I hear you on reading through the Bible and I will trust your word. But I must say growing up in the WoF I was unaware of 95.5% of the Bible because we always heard the same old positive scriptures. Let’s go back to Ps. 35. Interesting that I only here verse 27 from you but not the rest of the chapter. What about verses 7-8 is this the will of God and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the destruction and death of David’s enemies?

You say David taught this prosperity? The great king of Israel? What of Deut. 17:17? The criteria for a good king is not to take great wealth–silver and gold to himself. I argue that this is exactly what WoF/PG preachers are doing. Taking great wealth to themselves.

Now I know the response is, “No we are a blessing thats why we need to be blessed.” I am fascinated how this “blessing” is more often than not interpreted as riches and material wealth. The usual response if I may continue in my diatribe is to say, “No that’s the least we WoF focus on.” But I have to say I disagree. Because regardless of who you listen to, be it Dollar, Copeland, Duplantis etc. the majority of their sermons and books revolve around material when it comes to blessings.

Please don’t try to hide these guys behind some cloak of modesty because they are all far from modest in their wealth. Dollar drives a $500,000 Rolls Royce and lives in a 3 million dollar home. This is not the lifestyle of Jesus, this is the lifestyle of a Rapper.

And as far as most WoF/PG preachers never answering the question of what Jesus would drive and live in…this is dodging a very necessary bullet. Because if you honestly can’t answer this than you don’t understand Jesus and may not know what he was about. Jesus was not a man of means materially speaking (I must qualify that later). He would have lived modestly and given the rest to the poor and needy because he was selfless and compassionate. He was always moved with compassion to give. I’m sorry but this excessive wealth WoF/PG prescribes to is exactly “storing up treasure on earth.” How do they sleep at night knowing that thousands sleep in boxes? You say we are conduits but these guys are more than conduits they are stop signs that spend a great deal of wealth on themselves.

Does God want to bless us and take care of us? Yes! Does he want to meet our NEEDS? Yes this is what Jesus taught–OUR NEEDS! I can’t stand the trivializing of words like blessing, abundance, prosperity, riches, generosity, talents, gifts, seed time and harvest, sowing and reaping, rewards etc into material gain and money. There is always a cop-out to this by WoF but this is the majority of what they emphasize no matter how you or any WoF/PG subscriber tries to ignore it.

The other shallow come backs are, “Jesus had a treasurer”; “Jesus road a donkey that no man had ridden” (a Dollar quote); “Jesus wore designer clothes” (another Dollar quote); “God is rich, rich, rich, rich…and you can be too” (Copeland). These all reduce the gospel to silliness.

And no my friend, I am not a teacher of sick and broke which is also an accusation that WoF/PG folks throw when you don’t agree with their excess.

The picture you also paint is that we need money to bless and be a blessing. This is false. Jesus blessed most without using any money and so did Paul. God doesn’t need money to spread the gospel, what he would like is for each Christian to take the focus off of themselves all the time and their “stuff” and start telling people the good news. Does the poor woman in the Congo need your money? No, she needs to hear the gospel from a minister–most of which are not PG–and turn and tell her family and friends. That simple. That is what Jesus envisaged. People telling people. Not Copeland getting into his big jet because he’s the only one who can do it.

Jesus has fulfilled the law so that for us who are in Him, the law can no longer stand against us and accuse us. We are declared righteous concerning the requirements of the law. What is more, the promises God made to Israel remain ~ they have not been done away with. God fulfills His covenant with Abraham, which He confirmed to Isaac and Jacob (Israel). He fulfills it in Israel through Messiah Jesus, the perfect Israelite. And it is in Him that we receive all the promises and blessings of the covenant God made with Abraham. The blessings of Deuteronomy 28:1-14 are not promises that have nothing to do with God’s covenant with Abraham, they are expressions of what that covenant means.

Nothing I have said should be understood to mean that we are still dealing with Law. We are not. The law is fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah. So we no longer relate to the law. Instead, we now relate to King Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I think you are mistaking some of the sayings of some WOF for WOF theology. It is common among a lot of different Christian positions that when preachers get to preaching, theological nuance gets lost. Most WOF preachers are not theologians but are more oriented to exhortative teaching. So some things get said on the fly which may sound pretty good to them at the moment, and may even stick around for a while.

I do not like the formulation, “I am a spirit, I have a soul and I live in a body” because I think it does tend toward the Platonic separation.

I do not claim to be 100% aligned with WOF. In fact, I have said that there are things I disagree with. Some are aspects of doctrine, others are the way they say certain things, such as the above.

You said

“However, Jesus has instituted a new covenant by His own blood. It is not only a new covenant, it is also a better one. It does not do away with any of the promised benefits of the old covenant — that would make it a lesser covenant — but it adds to the blessing of that covenant.”

I would point your direction to Romans 7:1-6, Ephesians 2:13-16 and Hebrews 7:11-26. This does not indicate that Christ added to what was already there but rendered it ineffective. The grafting in of Israel does not mean we graft the Old Covenant into the new and represent that as Christianity. It means that Gentiles are no longer excluded from the promises of God to be called his people. Galatians 3-4 indicates this as well.

I would also draw your attention to the correlation between the Law and the Spirit. Obedience to the Law marked the representation of Israel as God’s people.(note that Pentecost was a day to comemmorate the the giving of the Law – ironic). That has been replaced by the internal dwelling of the Spirit, which affects obedience to Christ. That obedience is sourced in belief in him and who he is in order to proclaim him and be an authentic witness.

I don’t reject the added benefits that God can bestow on us because he loves us, but neither should they be required as an indication that we are blessed.

Except for all the WOF teachers who, using 3 John 2, argue that outward health and wealth are the signposts of inward spiritual growth. As one teacher told me directly (and repeatedly), “Health and wealth are the ‘show and tell’ God uses to indicate to the world what is going on inside us spiritually.”

I think one problem here, Jeff, is that you are defending a theology that holds a lot of beliefs you yourself do not hold! As I have said before, WOF folks are typically much better Christians than their WOF theology should warrant.

Hi again, Jeff. I thought I could leave this alone, but here we are again.

I wanted to point out this, which you said twice in your posts. You are absolutely correct on this, though you applied it only to the separation of spiritual and physical blessings. So what about “I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a body.” Does that sound familiar? Isn’t that something virtually every WOF teacher says, and has the congregation repeat?

I mean, that’s practically Gnostic cheerleading. :)

I believe that Deuteronomy 28:1-14 does have application to Christians today. God promised great blessing and abundance on earth to Israel if they would obey His voice and observe His commands. Of course, they failed to do so, quite miserably. But Jesus the Messiah came as the perfect Israelite who obeyed God fully and completely on behalf of Israel, and indeed, on behalf of the whole world, for all who believe in Him. Deuteronomy 28 is, of course, part of the oldcovenant, cut with the blood of bulls and goats. However, Jesus has instituted a new covenant by His own blood. It is not only a new covenant, it is also a better one. It does not do away with any of the promised benefits of the old covenant — that would make it a lesser covenant — but it adds to the blessing of that covenant. And now, all who believe in King Jesus the Messiah, who is the perfect Israelite, are grafted into Israel, because we are in Him. And so the blessings and promises to Israel have begun to be fulfilled upon the earth, not only in a “spiritualized” way but also in tangible, material ways. The kingdom of God has broken into the world and brings with it the will of God being done on earth as it is in heaven. The more the kingdom pervades the earth, the more heaven pervades on earth. And in the end, heaven and earth will be completely joined together as one.

Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 6:3-11 are about those who try to manipulate the Gospel and godliness for the purpose of great gain. Their love is for money, not God and by their greediness have strayed from the faith.

I do not think WOF fits that description. Oh, there are some on the fringes who appear to be trying to “work the system.” But that is not what WOF teaching is about. We are not to love money, trust in money, serve money or glorify money. We are to love, trust, serve and glorify God alone. It is His kingdom we are to seek, not our own. We are not blessed to consume it upon our lusts but to be a blessing to others.

In 1 Corinthians 4:9-16, Paul is describing the persecution he and other apostles experienced. Jesus promised us there would be persecution of His sake and the Gospel’s, and I have been regularly reminded by WOF teachers that this is so. Of course, Paul is here only describing half the story. In other places, he tells the other half — he know both how to be abased AND how to abound. Sometimes he suffered deprivation because of persecution for the Gospel; other times he experienced the abundance of God and had all the material provision he needed so that he lacked nothing.

As you said, outward wealth is not a symbol of godly status. I agree. And so does WOF. Lack of outward wealth is not a sign that one is not right with God. And there are many people who have outward wealth but are ungodly; Kenneth Copeland says that such a person is “just a poor man with money.” WOF teaches that true prosperity begins with prosperity of soul (3 John 2), and until you begin to prosper in the inward man, you are not prospering at all, now matter how much money you have or how successful you may be in the eyes of the world.

Financial prosperity and material wealth are, for WOF, the least of God’s blessing for His people. Creflo Dollar says it is a very small slice of the pie. Much greater are the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, etc. God also manifests the blessings of the Gospel through the gifts of the Spirit.

Every blessing we have is found in Jesus the Messiah. In Him, God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3). This does not preclude material blessing, success and prosperity but, rather, encompasses them. For the nature of the physical realm is that it is found on the spiritual realm. God, who created the heavens and the earth — that is, the material world — IS Spirit. So, in Jesus the Messiah, we have EVERY blessing. The material is not to be separated out from the spiritual, as if we were Platonists or Gnostics.

I am not limited to a handful of verses to support my position. But I am limited, by the constrictions of a blog thread, from presenting all the numerous Scriptures and how they pertain. It would take a few volumes to talk about them all.

And even the ones that are usually presented are not squarely and consistently dealt with. Take Psalm 35:37. No, it is not a direct statement of God. But it is something that David teaches under divine inspiration. Shall we suppose that what David says here is not true, that God does not delight in the prosperity of His people, because it is David and not God who says it? Then, to be consistent, we should also have to doubt “The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want,” because that is not a direct statement from God but something that David said.

And what shall we do with Psalm 1, which describes the blessing of the man who does not walking in ungodly counsel, stand in the path of sinners or sit with mockers, but delight in the law of the LORD? The psalm writer says there that whatever such a man does will prosper? This is not a direct statement uttered by God but something written about God by the psalm writer.

Thank you for your kind invitation to read through the Bible book by book. I have done so, and I have found throughout that God’s desire is for His people to walk in wisdom, health and prosperity. As I read, Jeremy, I do pay attention to the context and what such passages mean in context, and the legitimate ways they apply. My method is the basically one I learned early on. It is three questions I ask of a text: What does it say? What does it mean? How does it apply?

No doubt, there are many WOF whose exegesis and hermeneutics leave much to be desired and who seem to do little more than proof-texting. But I am always looking to understand the text in its proper context and then exploring what application it has for Christians today.

It is purely a matter of opinion as to whether or not we have an over-realized eschatology. My opinion is that many Christians have an under-realized eschatology. BTW, I take a post-millennial viewpoint, which most WOF do not (at least as far as I know). It has been called “victorious eschatology,” which I much prefer to the defeatist eschatology I’ve seen in many Christians. I also agree with N. T. Wright, that the end of the story has broken into the middle of the story in the cross and resurrection of King Jesus the Messiah. I view the cross and the atonement in terms of Christus Victor). I do not subscribe to the platonic, or sometimes almost gnostic type of separation many Christians make between matter and spirit, so that they want to “spiritualize” all the promises of God as if they have no earthly application.

WOF is not about consumerism or hyper-consumerism or capitalism. It is about believing the promises of God, including His promises to fully provide for us in all things, even to the point of abundance so that we have something to give to every good work and bless others. “Blessed to be a blessing,” is a motto I have very often heard from WOF people.

WOF does not teach that anybody should in wealth, love wealth, trust in riches or serve mammon. Quite the opposite, it teaches us to love, trust, serve and glory in God alone. WOF is about honoring the Word of God and having faith in it alone, even though every circumstance and emotion and thought might contradict it.

Now, of course, like any theology or teaching, there is the core teaching, and then there are the various extremes some people might take it to. I do not agree with everything every person going under the banner of WOF says. In fact, there are a number of things I disagree with. And some of the ways some have abused the core teaching have been quite egregious. So, when I speak about WOF, I am speaking only of the core teaching. I believe that a theology or teaching should not be judged on its worst presentation or by how it has been abused at the fringes but, rather, should be evaluated at its best presentation and what it is at its core.

Now, to your second post and the questions you ask there:

Although it may play to stereotype, big mansions and fancy cars are not what WOF teaching is about. Such amenities are extraneous to it. I’m not concerned whether anybody has such things, nor it is my job to tell people how big a house they should live in or how nice a car they should drive or how nice their clothes should be. If Jesus were on earth today, I don’t know what kind of car He might drive, how big a house He might live in or what kind of clothes He might wear. And neither do you. Such speculations tend to be made on whatever one’s particular ideology is. So it sort of begs the question.

I jive very strongly with Matthew 19:14 and living as a humble servant. That is what King Jesus came to be and is what we are called to as His disciples. Indeed, I believe it is the nature of God. God IS love, and it is the nature of love to give and serve. Jesus made Himself the Humble Servant of all, and has not ceased to be, even now as He reigns at the right hand of the Father. And so should we all be.

But being a humble servant does not mean being sick and broke. Being healthy and prosperous does not conflict in any way with being a servant of others. Indeed, when we are healthy and prosperous we are able to serve others all the better, and when we have abundance we are able to give to the need of others. As I noted earlier, a common motto among WOF is that we are “blessed to be a blessing.”

Jesus did speak clearly about wealth and abundance, but some Christians are too dull of hearing to recognize it. We are not to serve mammon or wealth, but we are to use wealth for His kingdom. I can go into that further, but this post is already long as it is. There are many places throughout the Old and New Testaments which speak of the prosperity and abundance God has for His people. There is no room here to talk about them all, and if I mention just a couple, you will suppose that that it all there is.

Consider Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians 3:9-10; Colossians 3