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	<title>Comments on: Rant About Worship Songs</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: eclugar</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13988</link>
		<dc:creator>eclugar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13988</guid>
		<description>very slick!!
a good learning experience. make sure we read thoroughly before coming to any quick conclusions. a bad habit of mine sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very slick!!<br />
a good learning experience. make sure we read thoroughly before coming to any quick conclusions. a bad habit of mine sometimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Rant About Worship Songs &#171; Josh&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13982</link>
		<dc:creator>Rant About Worship Songs &#171; Josh&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13982</guid>
		<description>[...]  Below is Jeremy Pierce&#8217;s, &#8220;Rant About Worship Songs,&#8221; from First Things: http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Below is Jeremy Pierce&#8217;s, &#8220;Rant About Worship Songs,&#8221; from First Things: <a href="http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/" rel="nofollow">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13942</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13942</guid>
		<description>JB in CA: If that&#039;s all you&#039;re saying, then why do you think you&#039;re disagreeing with me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JB in CA: If that&#8217;s all you&#8217;re saying, then why do you think you&#8217;re disagreeing with me?</p>
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		<title>By: Tof Lee</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13852</link>
		<dc:creator>Tof Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13852</guid>
		<description>Read Psalm 51:11.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read Psalm 51:11.</p>
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		<title>By: Susanna</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13814</link>
		<dc:creator>Susanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Sep 2010 03:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13814</guid>
		<description>bwahaha. I was about to be all outraged about this, and then the punchline. Brilliant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bwahaha. I was about to be all outraged about this, and then the punchline. Brilliant.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13748</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13748</guid>
		<description>JB: Amen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JB: Amen!</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13747</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13747</guid>
		<description>And then there is this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/metal_vicar/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And then there is this:<br />
<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/metal_vicar/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/metal_vicar/</a></p>
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		<title>By: JB in CA</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13743</link>
		<dc:creator>JB in CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13743</guid>
		<description>Jeremy, I don&#039;t wish to be antagonistic, but at the same time, I still think you&#039;re not really understanding much of what I&#039;m trying to get across. For example, I&#039;m puzzled that you would say &quot;The &#039;exactly one emotion&#039; meant exclusively the appropriate ones as deemed by you,&quot; suggesting that I was somehow setting myself up as the arbiter of aesthetically appropriate music for worship, when in fact I was deferring to the rich history of Christian reflection on that issue, a history that stretches back some two thousand years. Unlike you, I do not believe that the appropriateness of music for worship &quot;is all relative to the individual or to the culture ... .&quot; That&#039;s not to say that I think cultural or individual tastes should play no role in determining what is appropriate, only that I reject the idea that music is simply a matter of taste. I want to insist that there are objective standards in aesthetics just as there are objective standards in other areas of human concern, such as morality (some actions are wrong regardless of what anyone happens to want), reason (some arguments are invalid regardless of what anyone happens to think), and belief (some claims are false regardless of what anyone happens to feel). Moreover, I want to insist that a rich musical tradition that has self-consciously reflected on what those standards are with respect to worship is much more likely to have found them than is a tradition of music that is primarily concerned with &quot;relevant&quot; contemporary (i.e., secular) cultural preferences. Now, of course, whether you agree or not with my position is another matter altogether. But before you do either, I would like for you at least to understand what it is I&#039;m trying to say. I hope this clarifies it a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy, I don&#8217;t wish to be antagonistic, but at the same time, I still think you&#8217;re not really understanding much of what I&#8217;m trying to get across. For example, I&#8217;m puzzled that you would say &#8220;The &#8216;exactly one emotion&#8217; meant exclusively the appropriate ones as deemed by you,&#8221; suggesting that I was somehow setting myself up as the arbiter of aesthetically appropriate music for worship, when in fact I was deferring to the rich history of Christian reflection on that issue, a history that stretches back some two thousand years. Unlike you, I do not believe that the appropriateness of music for worship &#8220;is all relative to the individual or to the culture &#8230; .&#8221; That&#8217;s not to say that I think cultural or individual tastes should play no role in determining what is appropriate, only that I reject the idea that music is simply a matter of taste. I want to insist that there are objective standards in aesthetics just as there are objective standards in other areas of human concern, such as morality (some actions are wrong regardless of what anyone happens to want), reason (some arguments are invalid regardless of what anyone happens to think), and belief (some claims are false regardless of what anyone happens to feel). Moreover, I want to insist that a rich musical tradition that has self-consciously reflected on what those standards are with respect to worship is much more likely to have found them than is a tradition of music that is primarily concerned with &#8220;relevant&#8221; contemporary (i.e., secular) cultural preferences. Now, of course, whether you agree or not with my position is another matter altogether. But before you do either, I would like for you at least to understand what it is I&#8217;m trying to say. I hope this clarifies it a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13695</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 19:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13695</guid>
		<description>Biggntuff, given the emphasis on worship as your whole life, and the fact that it&#039;s clearly a sin in the NT not to gather corporately, just what is it that people are doing that isn&#039;t worship when they gather together? Being completely unconscious? It&#039;s got to be worship if we&#039;re aware at all of what we&#039;re doing when we gather, because everything we do is to be worship. We may disagree on what particularly should be done (but we are told in the NT that it should involve reading scripture and singing songs), but it certainly is to be worship.

JB in CA: &lt;i&gt;If anyone is being narrow in this discussion, it’s the one who believes that the choice of music during worship should be determined entirely by contemporary contextual relevance.&lt;/i&gt;

Sure, someone who thinks choice of music should be determined entirely by contemporary contextual relevance is being narrow. But so too is someone who thinks it should not be influenced by that at all. I&#039;m saying neither.

&lt;i&gt;“Appropriate” and “inappropriate” are not the same as “good” and “evil.”&lt;/i&gt;

Exactly, and appropriateness is a culturally-relative thing.

&lt;i&gt;Maybe you use the term differently, but according to the Oxford American Writer’s Thesaurus, “cool,” in this sort of context, means “trendy,” “funky,” “with it,” “hip,” “groovy,” “phat,” “kicky,” etc. I fail to see how music that evokes a sense of cool under those descriptions would be any more appropriate to worship than lyrics such as “When I survey the funky cross” (to adapt an earlier example you gave).&lt;/i&gt;

Nope, it was I who used the word, and I didn&#039;t use it in that sense. I simply meant awesome. It&#039;s creative. It&#039;s an excellent use of the combinatorial abilities God gave us, and it sounds interesting to me, so I&#039;d be curious to hear what it&#039;s like.

&lt;i&gt;f you replaced the music of a hymn with the music of a contemporary worship song, you would no longer have a hymn, even though you might still have the lyrics to it.&lt;/i&gt;

I was talking about playing Come Thou Fount of Every Blessings with the usual melody and chord changes but with a calypso beat and musical arrangement. I was thinking about cases like Holy, Holy, Holy with distorted guitars and a rock beat the way the early 90s Metal Praise album did. It&#039;s certainly using contemporary music, but it&#039;s still the original hymn.

The &quot;exactly one emotion&quot; meant exclusively the appropriate ones as deemed by you. I&#039;m not sure the pairings you gave are the best way to think about things. Some of them seem to me to be false dilemmas or false disjunctions (certainly with agape and eros), and I&#039;m not sure the second member in every case is always bad (e.g. self-interest is neutral, and community-individuality are both good in the appropriate ways). My main point was about limiting ourself to certain emotions. Your focus on the singleness rather than the limitedness might be a distraction.

&lt;i&gt;A screaming guitar lick with a hard-driving base and sinister vocals may be appropriate for evoking the attitude of rage, but it’s hardly appropriate for evoking an attitude of worship.&lt;/i&gt;

I can name plenty of examples that do have exactly that effect in me and lots of others. &quot;King of Kings&quot; by Barren Cross, &quot;Myriad&quot; by Kansas, and several songs of the aforementioned Metal Praise album are actually more effective for me than most hymns at bringing out an attitude of worship, since the words in many hymns usually go by way too quickly for me to contemplate them, and a driving beat with very well-executed lead guitar doesn&#039;t lead me to a state of rage or depression but more often creates a state of awe. As I said, this is all relative to the individual or to the culture in the cases of larger groups with similar responses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biggntuff, given the emphasis on worship as your whole life, and the fact that it&#8217;s clearly a sin in the NT not to gather corporately, just what is it that people are doing that isn&#8217;t worship when they gather together? Being completely unconscious? It&#8217;s got to be worship if we&#8217;re aware at all of what we&#8217;re doing when we gather, because everything we do is to be worship. We may disagree on what particularly should be done (but we are told in the NT that it should involve reading scripture and singing songs), but it certainly is to be worship.</p>
<p>JB in CA: <i>If anyone is being narrow in this discussion, it’s the one who believes that the choice of music during worship should be determined entirely by contemporary contextual relevance.</i></p>
<p>Sure, someone who thinks choice of music should be determined entirely by contemporary contextual relevance is being narrow. But so too is someone who thinks it should not be influenced by that at all. I&#8217;m saying neither.</p>
<p><i>“Appropriate” and “inappropriate” are not the same as “good” and “evil.”</i></p>
<p>Exactly, and appropriateness is a culturally-relative thing.</p>
<p><i>Maybe you use the term differently, but according to the Oxford American Writer’s Thesaurus, “cool,” in this sort of context, means “trendy,” “funky,” “with it,” “hip,” “groovy,” “phat,” “kicky,” etc. I fail to see how music that evokes a sense of cool under those descriptions would be any more appropriate to worship than lyrics such as “When I survey the funky cross” (to adapt an earlier example you gave).</i></p>
<p>Nope, it was I who used the word, and I didn&#8217;t use it in that sense. I simply meant awesome. It&#8217;s creative. It&#8217;s an excellent use of the combinatorial abilities God gave us, and it sounds interesting to me, so I&#8217;d be curious to hear what it&#8217;s like.</p>
<p><i>f you replaced the music of a hymn with the music of a contemporary worship song, you would no longer have a hymn, even though you might still have the lyrics to it.</i></p>
<p>I was talking about playing Come Thou Fount of Every Blessings with the usual melody and chord changes but with a calypso beat and musical arrangement. I was thinking about cases like Holy, Holy, Holy with distorted guitars and a rock beat the way the early 90s Metal Praise album did. It&#8217;s certainly using contemporary music, but it&#8217;s still the original hymn.</p>
<p>The &#8220;exactly one emotion&#8221; meant exclusively the appropriate ones as deemed by you. I&#8217;m not sure the pairings you gave are the best way to think about things. Some of them seem to me to be false dilemmas or false disjunctions (certainly with agape and eros), and I&#8217;m not sure the second member in every case is always bad (e.g. self-interest is neutral, and community-individuality are both good in the appropriate ways). My main point was about limiting ourself to certain emotions. Your focus on the singleness rather than the limitedness might be a distraction.</p>
<p><i>A screaming guitar lick with a hard-driving base and sinister vocals may be appropriate for evoking the attitude of rage, but it’s hardly appropriate for evoking an attitude of worship.</i></p>
<p>I can name plenty of examples that do have exactly that effect in me and lots of others. &#8220;King of Kings&#8221; by Barren Cross, &#8220;Myriad&#8221; by Kansas, and several songs of the aforementioned Metal Praise album are actually more effective for me than most hymns at bringing out an attitude of worship, since the words in many hymns usually go by way too quickly for me to contemplate them, and a driving beat with very well-executed lead guitar doesn&#8217;t lead me to a state of rage or depression but more often creates a state of awe. As I said, this is all relative to the individual or to the culture in the cases of larger groups with similar responses.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13677</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13677</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff since my #48.  I find it odd that Jeremy is contending with JB in CA, since JB is expanding what the orginal post was about?  First, it is acknowledged that several &quot;hymms&quot; are singy-songy and weak theologically, especially from the later part of the 19th century, they should be weeded out. It is sad to see a &quot;band&quot; butcher a hymm, where the orginal melody or even a solid contemporay one might suffice.  Second, that we should not throw the &quot;proverbial&quot; baby out with the bathwater!  There is quite a bit of sound contemporary Christian music if its not drowned out by excessive instrumentation, but there is lots of bath water also, especially since  cool profits are involved.  Third, there is an overemphasis on the &quot;worship team&quot; and folks on the platform with all the expensive hi-tech gear to the detriment of congregation singing, of what often little takes place.  Though there are many irreverantly gyrating, swooning, clapping, hand-raising, and even outbursts most copying the few &quot;so-called spiritual ones&quot;  in a psychological/emotional wave effect.  Not to say I haven&#039;t clapped to an upbeat solid song, or gotten teary-eyed when singing a &quot;Mighty Fortress is our God&quot; or such, but instead of trying to impress others I keep it within bounds.  That is one of the main problems: instead of equipping and influencing the Body with the Word with preaching, prayer and sound music. Today, there is a striving for &quot;cool&quot;, cultural relevance, and individualistic estactic transendent expression.  To the post that feels we should just worship in our prayer closets in the NT/NC, instead of corporately as with national, theocratic Israel, in the OT/OC, there are numerous passages NT passages concerning believers gathering and singing (Col &amp; Eph).  Even the Lord Jesus and disciples closed with a hymm as stated once in the Gospels/Acts, and probably did everytime, though that is my conjecture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff since my #48.  I find it odd that Jeremy is contending with JB in CA, since JB is expanding what the orginal post was about?  First, it is acknowledged that several &#8220;hymms&#8221; are singy-songy and weak theologically, especially from the later part of the 19th century, they should be weeded out. It is sad to see a &#8220;band&#8221; butcher a hymm, where the orginal melody or even a solid contemporay one might suffice.  Second, that we should not throw the &#8220;proverbial&#8221; baby out with the bathwater!  There is quite a bit of sound contemporary Christian music if its not drowned out by excessive instrumentation, but there is lots of bath water also, especially since  cool profits are involved.  Third, there is an overemphasis on the &#8220;worship team&#8221; and folks on the platform with all the expensive hi-tech gear to the detriment of congregation singing, of what often little takes place.  Though there are many irreverantly gyrating, swooning, clapping, hand-raising, and even outbursts most copying the few &#8220;so-called spiritual ones&#8221;  in a psychological/emotional wave effect.  Not to say I haven&#8217;t clapped to an upbeat solid song, or gotten teary-eyed when singing a &#8220;Mighty Fortress is our God&#8221; or such, but instead of trying to impress others I keep it within bounds.  That is one of the main problems: instead of equipping and influencing the Body with the Word with preaching, prayer and sound music. Today, there is a striving for &#8220;cool&#8221;, cultural relevance, and individualistic estactic transendent expression.  To the post that feels we should just worship in our prayer closets in the NT/NC, instead of corporately as with national, theocratic Israel, in the OT/OC, there are numerous passages NT passages concerning believers gathering and singing (Col &amp; Eph).  Even the Lord Jesus and disciples closed with a hymm as stated once in the Gospels/Acts, and probably did everytime, though that is my conjecture.</p>
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		<title>By: All that&#8217;s wrong with modern worship songs &#171; Amos5&#039;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13643</link>
		<dc:creator>All that&#8217;s wrong with modern worship songs &#171; Amos5&#039;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13643</guid>
		<description>[...] that&#8217;s wrong with modern worship&#160;songs September 7, 2010    by amos5   I loved this &#8211; it took me a while to get it, though, so please &#8211; follow the links before you get [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that&#8217;s wrong with modern worship&nbsp;songs September 7, 2010    by amos5   I loved this &#8211; it took me a while to get it, though, so please &#8211; follow the links before you get [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Latest Links &#124; blog of dan</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13637</link>
		<dc:creator>Latest Links &#124; blog of dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 06:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13637</guid>
		<description>[...] Rant About Worship Songs [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rant About Worship Songs [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Linton</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13636</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Linton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13636</guid>
		<description>Look folks, from beginning to end (including my response) this post is a mess.  Let&#039;s just stop it.
If Jeremy wants to treat this business seriously (and with nearly 100 comments so far, it certainly appears to be a serious matter to a lot of us) we can all take a deep breath, remember that we&#039;re supposed to love each other, and really consider what the praise-chorus liturgy means--and that&#039;s a very long and complex discussion.  But for now let&#039;s all just back off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look folks, from beginning to end (including my response) this post is a mess.  Let&#8217;s just stop it.<br />
If Jeremy wants to treat this business seriously (and with nearly 100 comments so far, it certainly appears to be a serious matter to a lot of us) we can all take a deep breath, remember that we&#8217;re supposed to love each other, and really consider what the praise-chorus liturgy means&#8211;and that&#8217;s a very long and complex discussion.  But for now let&#8217;s all just back off.</p>
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		<title>By: Aussiejohn</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13630</link>
		<dc:creator>Aussiejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 20:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13630</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

Absolutely spot on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>Absolutely spot on!</p>
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		<title>By: Those Crappy Worship Songs &#124; The Assembling of the Church</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/08/rant-worship/#comment-13629</link>
		<dc:creator>Those Crappy Worship Songs &#124; The Assembling of the Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2010 20:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=8504#comment-13629</guid>
		<description>[...] seen it yet, and probably many of you have, please check out this sarcastic post called &#8220;Rant About Worship Songs.&#8221; Make sure that you check out the links for each &#8220;rant.&#8221; And, remember, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seen it yet, and probably many of you have, please check out this sarcastic post called &#8220;Rant About Worship Songs.&#8221; Make sure that you check out the links for each &#8220;rant.&#8221; And, remember, [...]</p>
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