A few words before you watch this video.
1. The point is obvious, and it’s been said before, but to see it in this high production value should make you at least be happy that the point is also going mainstream.
2. The stunning irony of this video is that it comes from North Point Media — which is a function of North Point Church, Andy Stanley’s church. It’s a church foundational to the “Catalyst” network of churches which, if you ask me, are among the ones getting poked at in the video.
3. It’s Friday. Sunday’s coming.
“Sunday’s Coming” Movie Trailer from North Point Media on Vimeo.
May 7th, 2010 | 9:28 am | #1
My pastor and, well, most of the leadership team, love Andy Stanley. Actually, our church is pretty much modeled after North Point.
The pattern in the video is uncomfortably familiar.
May 7th, 2010 | 9:42 am | #2
My daughter is a member at NP. I always enjoy worshiping there and always come away blessed by their ministry. That said, like Evan and Frank, I agree it seems like they are mocking themselves. Perhaps Andy Stanley is going to be challenging them to think through worship or some such.
May 7th, 2010 | 10:39 am | #3
This video gave me an uncomfortable and nauseous feeling.
It’s one thing to poke fun at yourself, it’s another to make people feel as if you have been manipulating them. It makes the people feel duped, and it makes you look like some kind of con-artist.
It’s like, “Hey, we’ve been manipulating you by design. It’s kind of funny. But now, here’s what we’re going to do…”
Too spooky to be funny in my opinion. But then, maybe I’m just grouchy today.
May 7th, 2010 | 12:11 pm | #4
Well, it is manipulation by design. It’s a liturgy.
The trick is, once you realize that’s what you’re doing, to repent.
May 7th, 2010 | 12:28 pm | #5
It can be very easy, even in worship, to develop a bag of tricks, to try to create (or recreate) a “moment.” Then you get used to taking the stage and slipping into character, and you become a poser, a fake, and you hardly even realize it. But recognizing the pose and the fraud that it so easily becomes is a step toward being real again — if you’re willing to let it go.
May 7th, 2010 | 2:24 pm | #6
I think that’s a cop-out, to be honest.
I think that if we were actually intentional and authentic when we gather for corporate worship, we would really not give a hoot what people thought about our intentions or authenticity.
But at the same time, a la 1 Cor 14, those who were looking in from the outside would see us as worshipping a God of Order, not Chaos, and a God of salvation, not manipulation.
May 7th, 2010 | 2:49 pm | #7
Well, I guess this is what evangelicalism is coming to these days… I’m sorry this is how it had to end, but, hey, at least the self-mocking satire makes it even more relevant.
May 7th, 2010 | 3:15 pm | #8
@3 (Brad)
Pretty sure the intent was to leave you nauseous
@6 (Frank)
I think that is the point of the video – that church services have (in some, or many) cases, become more about manipulation than “authentic” whatever.
If you want real manipulation, try out your average high school youth group – some of the stuff they pull is truly disgusting
May 8th, 2010 | 11:52 am | #9
Ugh! Nearly enough to make this Reformed Christian want to swim the Bosporos.
May 8th, 2010 | 5:21 pm | #10
I’d rather participate in an actual Christian liturgy, one that’s been around a good, long while, something the Fathers would recognize.
May 8th, 2010 | 10:39 pm | #11
@10 – OrthoJedi
Ya, like one with animal sacrifices!
Oh, not that one. You mean the one where they met in homes?
No, not that one either. The one were they said mass in Latin with their backs to the congregation?
hmmm – just which liturgy are you talkng about?
May 9th, 2010 | 8:11 pm | #12
Dear David Carlson:
I don’t think any Christian liturgy has ever involved animal sacrifices. And meeting in homes was by necessity; it was not a liturgical requirement.
Of course, if the post was intended humorously, I apologize for my heavy-handed response.
May 11th, 2010 | 7:03 pm | #13
Quite accurate. Perhaps it is time that Christians considered that the medium is actually the message. If a Christian from the time of the early Church went to a Latin mass from Medieval Christendom, or an Orthodox service, or a historical Protestant service, they would’ve been able to infer their Christianity from the very form of the service. No longer. Evangelicalism has become the knock-off of an idiotic secular culture. Slap whatever dumbed-down sermonizing you want on your music or message, you’re still just aping a hollow culture by a hollow “service.”
Oh well, at least we can buy bad coffee and self-help books conveniently.
May 12th, 2010 | 11:56 am | #14
Is my emotional response to the music the same thing as my relationship with Christ?
May 12th, 2010 | 2:15 pm | #15
This video is so funny, I posted it to a Catholic forum the other day and we all had a good laugh. This irreverent Evangelical rubbish borders on sacriledge. No wonder Christianity has become the laughing stock of American society. We have a “church” like this in my hometown (actually, we have a couple I think). I once asked one of the members there if they recite the Nicene Creed and the person responded “the what?” Pitiful, so many lost souls having to endure this type of thing every Sunday. What is the shortest verse of the New Testament? “Jesus wept.”
May 12th, 2010 | 3:31 pm | #16
Mr. Carlson,
There have been changes in places of meeting, and there have been changes in language, but it’s no secret that the most ancient Christian liturgies have changed very little and are used today.
May 12th, 2010 | 3:40 pm | #17
OTOH, there have been many people who have been evangelized and brought into vital, ongoing relationship with God through this kind of church. Marriages have been restored and dysfunctional families have learned how to function through the ministries of such churches as this.
I don’t think Jesus weeps any more over this kind of church than He does over your church. There is enough well-deserved criticism to go around.
At least North Point Church has enough self-awareness to recognize the dangers of their own type of church and the willingness to poke some fun at themselves with what are some pretty stinging barbs.
May 12th, 2010 | 4:14 pm | #18
I seem to recall reading something in the New Testament about gaining the whole world and losing ones soul? What good is a “fun Church” who has “cool” social programs if it manages to only lead souls away in the end?
May 12th, 2010 | 4:19 pm | #19
Jeff,
I actually agree with you. There is a hierarchy of truth
May 12th, 2010 | 4:29 pm | #20
What I was talking about was not “fun Church” or “cool social programs” but people being restored to vital relationship with God, and as a consequence, with their mates and their families. I don’t think that equates with “losing one’s soul.”
May 12th, 2010 | 9:43 pm | #21
If it is a Protestant sect that is exactly what it equates to. At the Church like that in my hometown, when I ask someone who goes there why it is that they go there, do you know how far down the list they get before Jesus or God are mentioned? I’ve not met a person yet who put Jesus or God in the top 5. Churches such as the one in that video do not promote the proper reverence, humility, and submission before God that the New Covenant requires. These Churches simply serve to feed peoples egos and perpetuate the revolving door of cafeteria Christians who want their religion to accomodate their own lives.
May 13th, 2010 | 8:24 am | #22
So then, Dugan, you’re just anti-Protestant in general. Thanks for sharing.
May 14th, 2010 | 9:35 am | #23
Mr. Doles,
Respectfully,
Pragmatic arguments (i.e. “people are being saved; families restored, etc.) apart from being completely debatable on their own terms, are irrelevant. It does not matter if the expected consequences are positive; this is irrelevant to whether or not something is true. And the question at hand is this: is this type of service meaningfully or recognizably Christian in any way?
Perhaps it is meaningfully Christian. Obviously, this is what is being debated. But the truth of that assertion is not dependant on its consequence.
May 14th, 2010 | 10:30 am | #24
This clip is, of course, a parody. But the kind of service it depicts, with similar music and formatting, with the word being preached (whatever the homiletical style) is meaningfully and recognizably Christian. At least the ones I’ve witnessed. The people who are being saved are not being saved generically but specifically in the name of Jesus Christ. The families being restored are being restored by the application of the gospel of Jesus Christ as part of the ministry of the church. I am not merely asserting consequences as if they are somehow independent of their cause. Rather, I am pointing to some meaningful consequences that are significant manifestations of a meaningful Christianity.
May 14th, 2010 | 5:17 pm | #25
So Jeff what you mean is;
people raise their hands/ repeat phrases etc.
people appreciate the self help programs.
people generally are better off now than before.
how is that meaningfully and recognizably Christian.
how much of the messages and work in these places absolutely require a crucifies Lord and savior? how much of these messages and work are equally applicable in a mormon or JW gathering, or a community service event?
we have in the video a wonderful example of marketing and coersion, but i question that when Christ asked Peter 3 times “do you love me”? then commanded him, is this even slightly related to what Christ said?
May 14th, 2010 | 6:21 pm | #26
Some people raise hands in worship for a number of reasons: to praise the Lord, to surrender to the Lord, to symbolically lift their soul to the Lord, to symbolically lift their prayer to the Lord. It has precedence both in Scripture and in the history of the Church. When they lift their hands in worship of God ~ Father, Son and Holy Spirit ~ how should we NOT recognize that as meaningfully Christian.
Repeating phrases? What phrases are you talking about? There is such a thing as vain repetition, of course, but the mere fact of repetition should not automatically be disqualified as vain, or else we should have to think of the many litanies historically found in more liturgical churches as vain. Are they phrases of worship, praise or consecration to Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Are they bringing truth from Scripture? Are they spoken in faith and not in unbelief? How should we NOT recognize that as meaningfully Christian?
I’ve described people finding salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ and being discipled to such an extent that they are experiencing healing and restoration in their marriages and their families in addition to meaningful relationship with God. It is gross reductionism to simply dismiss such examples of salvation and discipleship as “self help.” They are outworkings of the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah. How should we NOT recognize them as meaningfully Christian?
The churches where I have been a part of such worship services preach Jesus as the Lord and Savior who was crucified on our behalf, urging the response of repentance and faith in Him. How should we NOT recognize that as meaningfully Christian?
May 16th, 2010 | 6:16 pm | #27
You people attacking Jeff need to remember a little church history. I mean, good grief, the Jesus Prayer anyone? You know the prayer so central to Orthodox spirituality? Does it not repeat over and over ad infinitum? And, on top of that, there are recommended breathing techniques to go along with it. Talk about therapy, and I happen to like the Jesus Prayer.
As for raising hands, what about the orans position that every Catholic priest embodies when he prays over the bread and wine? Is it not the case that lay people can raise hands today if one of the earliest depictions of prayer is, you guessed it, raised hands?
What about the centering prayer that the Cistercians practice and that Thomas Merton, the most famous monk America has ever produced, took to the east? Is centering prayer with its emphasis on meditative techniques somehow not prayer?
The video is hilarious I think. Let’s just enjoy it as poking fun, instead of seeing it as an indictment of this or that kind of Christianity.
If I were a Catholic, I would not want a certain Catholic order who just recently had to be taken over by the Vatican as the symbol for Catholicism, now would I? Did reciting the Apostles’ Creed and going through the liturgy keep the minister general of that order from committing such grave sin? Does that mean that reciting the Apostles’ Creed is bad? Of course not! Anyone who knows anything about the history of Christianity knows that there are plenty of easy targets out there in all versions.
Let’s have a laugh at one slice of Christianity and leave it. These amusing asides are not symbols of some deeper problem beyond the perennial issues all Christians face.
May 19th, 2010 | 2:06 am | #28
I’m really disappointed in the rigidity of some who insist if something isn’t done “the right way” it doesn’t count. Liturgy can be meaningful to some and distracting from worship to others. Let those who wish use that form, let those that don’t use another. God wants authentic worship, not rote. Worship that praises and glorifies him must by its nature give off to him a sweet odor.
The worship team of which I’m a member will see the video and receive the message. We will keep the focus on reality and the almighty, and not manipulating members of the body of Christ Thanks to NP for having the humility to parody themselves.
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