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    Thursday, March 18, 2010, 1:34 PM

    Some critics of Intelligent Design conflate the movement with creationism. Of course forms of Intelligent Design can be creationist, but arguably others (like that of Aristotle on some readings of the philosopher) are not. I am both a creationist and one who believes there exists evidence for Intelligent Design in nature.

    Those creationists who do believe in Intelligent Design are sometimes accused of “post-modern” impulses based on their view of science and what it gives us. Is this true?

    First, we would have to know what “post-modernism” is. Good definitions of “post-modernism” are hard to come by and I have never found one that everybody agrees is accurate, but let us assume that many “post-modernists” believe that there is no Truth or that the Truth is not knowable by mankind.

    If this is true, the “post-modernism” would be valuable to a creationist in one way: those who believe in post-modernism must lose one means of attacking creationism. Commonly creationists are attacked, because they deny (in some way) the scientific consensus and this scientific consensus is assumed by many moderns to  be the best means known to (at least) approximate the Truth.

    No sensible scientist claims to know the Truth of course, but many critics of creationism I meet have the rough-and-ready sense that the Truth is out there and we are pretty close to knowing it on some scientific questions. One of those questions is the general explanation for the origin and development of life.

    Now if post-modernism is true, then such an idea seems pretty presumptuous. If there is no Truth out there to find, then one cannot be getting close to finding it. If the Truth is unknowable, then assumptions that we are pretty close to knowing might be right, but would require a good bit more epistemological  work than most scientists have done.

    Now as a matter of fact, I (like many but by no means all creationists) think post-modernism (as defined) is wrong. I think there is a Truth and that it is knowable. I don’t mean all things we call truth are knowable and I don’t meant by “knowing”  that we have certainty (sometimes called “Cartesian” certainty), but I think many important things can be known in a meaningful sense of the word.

    That does not mean post-modernism isn’t important philosophically to a even a creationist such as I am.

    A creationist could use assumptions he thinks wrong to point out that if you don’t think that these assumptions are wrong, you should not use a certain kind argument against creationism or he could argue that only creationists have the means to escape those assumptions.

    Either argument could be used by an anti-post-modernist.

    However, the fact that one is not a post-modernist does not mean that one thinks the Truth can be known about the natural world. Just because there is knowable Truth, or even plain Truth, does not mean that the truths that can be found by science (as limited by methodological naturalism) will be such things.

    One could be pre-modern and modern and make such claims. One need not be post-modern (under any definition of the term).

    Suppose a creationist were also a Platonist. This is not an odd combination historically. Many twentieth century intellectuals were both. For a Platonist, the physical world is real only in a secondary or popular sense. The world of Ideas is the only world about which we can have knowledge.

    Plato said of physical reality, the gods and their relation to physical reality,  in fact all theories about it  (Timaeus):

    Wherefore, Socrates, if in our treatment of a great host of matters regarding the Gods and the generation of the Universe we prove unable to give accounts that are always in all respects self-consistent and perfectly exact, be not thou surprised; rather we should be content if we can furnish accounts that are inferior to none in likelihood, remembering that both I who speak [29d] and you who judge are but human creatures, so that it becomes us to accept the likely account of these matters and forbear to search beyond it.

    A person may be a creationist (as one some readings Plato was), think science worth doing (as Plato did), but still not think it is getting at Truth. Many competing “stories” can be told . . . though some are more likely than others or useful. It might be (at the moment) that something like Evolutionary theory is most useful and so even a creationist can use it. However, a creationist might have non-scientific reasons (including theological ones) for doubting that it will be the “final story.”

    Naive readers may confuse Platonist assumptions with post-modern assumptions since (in the area of science) they will sound similar .  . . but really as a pre-modern Plato seems an unlikely candidate for post-modernity!

    Philosophical considerations might suggest that this present story is incompatible with known Truth about the realm of ideas and so a better account must be possible. No perfect account (even when a new one is found) is possible, because the world just doesn’t lend itself to that kind of account due to its nature.

    The creationist would wait (even patiently) to see what came of things. He could acknowledge the usefulness of the present account, but point out the philosophical or theological difficulties that suggest a better account will (eventually) be possible. He will invest no material account as True.

    Of course, a creationist Platonist could accept something like theistic evolution (as provisional but not True) while working out the philosophical details. I think such a Platonist will have problems (philosophically), but everyone has problems!

    In any case, one need not be a post-modern to reject Baconian or other modern views of science. One could be a Platonist. (See A.E. Taylor as an interesting possible example.)

    I am not arguing (here) that one should be a Platonist or for Intelligent Design, but simply that one could doubt a commonly held view about science and its relationship to truth without being post-modern.  A non-post-modern could also use post-modern arguments to demonstrate that if one is a post-modern, one should not be as closed minded to alternative science as some post-moderns are (due to religious/ant-religious  hostility or some other factor).

    I am also not (here) arguing against evolutionary theory or forms of belief called theistic evolution. In this thread, I will not discuss topics not related to the argument HERE: that one can doubt that science is truth-finding without being post-modern.

    I explain this idea more fully in my book When Athens Met Jerusalem.

    14 Comments

      Truth Unites... and Divides
      March 18th, 2010 | 4:31 pm | #1

      JMR: “I am not arguing (here) that one should be a Platonist or for Intelligent Design, but simply that one could doubt a commonly held view about science and its relationship to truth without being post-modern.”

      Okay. I’d agree with that.

      While you’re at it, could someone (like Frank Turk) doubt your commonly held views about “Liberty” and “Justice” and its relationship to truth without being postmodern?

      ;-)

      Anthony Mator
      March 18th, 2010 | 6:43 pm | #2

      I believe the difference between modernism and post-modernism is exaggerated. If anything, the latter is the maturity of the former. “Truth” with a capital T was rejected by scholars long before the rise of post-modernity; while our fascination with drugs and mysticism and alternative spirituality can be traced back to Romanticism and the 19th century fascination with the occult.

      The culture hasn’t strayed from the modern view of science so much as it has grown less optimistic about the ultimate consequences of science and as a result sought meaning in an emotionally-oriented and doctrinally-vapid form of “spirituality” we do not know how to reconcile with our “science.”

      How anyone can call ID “post-modern” is beyond me. Intelligent Design is a contemporary re-imagining of a philosophy that has played a prominent role in Christian thought for as long as Christians have been thinking.

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:00 pm | #3

      And yet Anthony my own Platonism has been described (by those who evidently don’t know my work very well) as “post-modern.”

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:01 pm | #4

      Frank Turk is, I think, so pre-modern as to positively barbaric. ;)

      R Hampton
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:21 pm | #5

      One can also hold the view that Science (a.k.a. Natural or General Revelation) is also Truth (the Word of God) without being modern or post-modern, like St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

      Point being, you don’t have to subscribe to the arguments of Creationism or Intelligent Design in order to unconditionally accept Science and authentic, traditional Christianity.

      Anthony Mator
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:31 pm | #6

      R Hampton:

      Could you clarify your meaning? It’s true that Augustine and Aquinas would have used the word “science” differently than today’s scientists do. But how does that prove your point, since Aquinas agrees with ID and Creationism in the belief that the material world suggests an intelligent cause and that the Scriptures and our study of the natural world are not mutually exclusive.

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:58 pm | #7

      Mr. Hampton,

      Nature is an unchanging witness to God . . . but to what science are you referring? The science at the time of Aristotle, Augustine, or Aquinas?

      Each of these three eras had distinctly different interpretations of the book of nature.

      John Mark

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 18th, 2010 | 7:59 pm | #8

      To clarify:

      “Point being, you don’t have to subscribe to the arguments of Creationism or Intelligent Design in order to unconditionally accept Science and authentic, traditional Christianity.”

      This is correct. Some Christians do this. I don’t think they should . . . but your mileage may vary.

      Truth Unites... and Divides
      March 18th, 2010 | 8:09 pm | #9

      JMR: Frank Turk is, I think, so pre-modern as to positively barbaric. ;)

      Which one of the following doesn’t fit in the sentence above?

      (A) Frank Turk
      (B) Pre-modern
      (C) Barbaric
      (D) ;-)

      Answer: Ummmmm, Alex Trebek, what is “;-)”?

      ;-)

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 18th, 2010 | 9:38 pm | #10

      I will go with pre-modern.

      Frank rejects (so far as I can tell):

      a. Aristotelian logic (not in Sacred Scripture)
      b. Math (also not in Sacred Scripture)
      c. the existence of the pyramids (all that talk of Egypt in the Bible and no pyramids!).

      John Mark

      Truth Unites... and Divides
      March 19th, 2010 | 12:07 am | #11

      I didn’t know that.

      Well, despite his unfortunate rejection of Aristotelian logic, math, and the existence of pyramids(!), at least Frank Turk rejects theistic evolution which is to his credit.

      John Mark Reynolds
      March 19th, 2010 | 10:04 am | #12

      Christopher,

      I make it a general rule not to let my comments go to new topics. If I do, then I end up spending too much time on line and am tempted to stop commenting!

      This thread is about one small topic within another constrained topic (post-modernism and ID). As you have pointed out, I am in print on this topic. You can also hear me speak on it at several web sites . . . and should check out the “Touchstone” archives (just about my favorite magazine!).

      Sorry,

      John Mark

      R Hampton
      March 19th, 2010 | 6:45 pm | #13

      Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas all understood rational thought, and employed it as best the could under the circumstances. Certainly the powers of mathematics (e.g. geometric proofs) were well known, but Western civilization had not made much progress extending this approach beyond civil/mechanical engineering.

      Only in the last millennium did the collection and validation of unbiased evidence become a rigorous demand of “natural philosophers” – and fundamental to theorizing. And only in the last few centuries has the Scientific method codified this approach with unbiased, reproducible results. Given this boon, previously mysterious phenomena like lightning, magnetism, reproduction, etc. were finally analyzed and described with such accuracy that we could predict its behavior — that is, we could demonstrate that our knowledge was true.

      Consequently, modern Science can capture images of quarks splitting from atoms as proof of our understanding of Truth, unlike Aristotle and his hypothesis of four natural elements (fire, water, earth and air). As such, Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas would recognize modern Science as the kind of reasoning they wrote of long ago. So when the full application of reasoning produces “scientific” knowledge, it must be properly recognized as the Natural or General Revelation known to Christian theology.

      Francis Beckwith
      March 21st, 2010 | 5:11 pm | #14

      Hey John Mark, I just published my personal reflections about ID on the biologos website:

      http://biologos.org/blog/intelligent-design-and-me-part-ii/

      http://biologos.org/blog/intelligent-design-and-me-part-i-in-the-beginning/

      I’ve concluded–and I suspect you will disagree with me on this–that ID (and here I mean the Behe/Dembski project) buys into too many of the assumptions of Enlightenment science.

      That’s not to say that there are not good arguments against naturalism that are offered by ID advocates (as I claim in my essays). What I am suggesting is that these arguments are really not ID arguments, as much as they are arguments challenging the hegemony of scientism that, ironically, ID reinforces.

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