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	<title>Comments on: LOST, God, and the Justice/Grace Problem</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Pierce</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-9411</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-9411</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind that Ben did repent before Ilana welcomed him back, and it&#039;s not as if he&#039;s faced no punishment for his sins. They&#039;re not really dealing with ultimate sin and punishment in terms of one&#039;s relationship with God. Jacob told Richard he couldn&#039;t enter into that kind of thing. All they&#039;re doing with Ilana accepting Ben is thinking through what human relationships can look like, and I think she modeled quite well what a follower of Jesus ought to do. It was very nicely done and captures perfectly what grace is all about for the repentant. The repentance doesn&#039;t earn it whatsoever, and he didn&#039;t deserve her acceptance of him, but nevertheless she did the right thing and had good reasons to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind that Ben did repent before Ilana welcomed him back, and it&#8217;s not as if he&#8217;s faced no punishment for his sins. They&#8217;re not really dealing with ultimate sin and punishment in terms of one&#8217;s relationship with God. Jacob told Richard he couldn&#8217;t enter into that kind of thing. All they&#8217;re doing with Ilana accepting Ben is thinking through what human relationships can look like, and I think she modeled quite well what a follower of Jesus ought to do. It was very nicely done and captures perfectly what grace is all about for the repentant. The repentance doesn&#8217;t earn it whatsoever, and he didn&#8217;t deserve her acceptance of him, but nevertheless she did the right thing and had good reasons to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Lu</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-9143</link>
		<dc:creator>Lu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-9143</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t make direct 1 to 1 parallels like Jacob = God. Beware of being too literal. This is fiction, after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t make direct 1 to 1 parallels like Jacob = God. Beware of being too literal. This is fiction, after all.</p>
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		<title>By: iPródigo &#124; LOST, Deus e o problema graça/justiça</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-9004</link>
		<dc:creator>iPródigo &#124; LOST, Deus e o problema graça/justiça</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 02:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-9004</guid>
		<description>[...] por Josaías Jr &#124; iPródigo &#124; Original aqui AKPC_IDS += &quot;2058,&quot;; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] por Josaías Jr | iPródigo | Original aqui AKPC_IDS += &quot;2058,&quot;; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8989</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8989</guid>
		<description>Si,

They maay also be engaging in a bit of theodicy with the &quot;flash sideways.&quot; While the crash may have killed a lot of people and &quot;wrecked&quot; the lives of the survivors, the flash sideways may be suggesting that life would have been worse had they not crashed. 

This show stopped being interesting about two seasons ago (yet for some reason I couldn&#039;t stop watching), but this final season has redeemed it. It&#039;s great to see Hollywood explore the themes of evil, justice, and redemption, even if we don&#039;t agree with their conclusions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Si,</p>
<p>They maay also be engaging in a bit of theodicy with the &#8220;flash sideways.&#8221; While the crash may have killed a lot of people and &#8220;wrecked&#8221; the lives of the survivors, the flash sideways may be suggesting that life would have been worse had they not crashed. </p>
<p>This show stopped being interesting about two seasons ago (yet for some reason I couldn&#8217;t stop watching), but this final season has redeemed it. It&#8217;s great to see Hollywood explore the themes of evil, justice, and redemption, even if we don&#8217;t agree with their conclusions.</p>
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		<title>By: Si</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8977</link>
		<dc:creator>Si</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 00:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8977</guid>
		<description>The way that the philosophy of LOST, and the main drivers have changed is interesting. First off it was about survival, then you got a lot of fighting, then psuedo-science with time travel (there&#039;s still time for Stargate/Indiana Jones 4/etc aliens - Indy 4 must be the ultimate example of mid-naughties &#039;must have psuedo-science&#039;) and now everything has become &#039;spiritual&#039;. Is that not somewhat where culture has been/going?

It&#039;s worrying that they are setting up Jacob as the good-guy, the God-like figure. Given that Jacob has killed a lot of people by crashing planes and boats to show that man is capable of not being bad, I wonder if a &#039;God is not great&#039; type idea might work itself out.

There&#039;s still a possibility of some kind of dualism (as loved by Hollywood), with the references that have been made.

I do like the last paragraph - it&#039;s very likely that that might be the sort of thing that they are aiming at (and in the same time going &quot;spiritual good, religion bad&quot;, as mentioned by Amy above). Kind of reminds me of McLaren&#039;s idea of Yaweh/Jesus vs Theos - it is the zeigeist (though its Marcion&#039;s views as well, way back in the 200s), so it&#039;s probably going to be the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way that the philosophy of LOST, and the main drivers have changed is interesting. First off it was about survival, then you got a lot of fighting, then psuedo-science with time travel (there&#8217;s still time for Stargate/Indiana Jones 4/etc aliens &#8211; Indy 4 must be the ultimate example of mid-naughties &#8216;must have psuedo-science&#8217;) and now everything has become &#8216;spiritual&#8217;. Is that not somewhat where culture has been/going?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worrying that they are setting up Jacob as the good-guy, the God-like figure. Given that Jacob has killed a lot of people by crashing planes and boats to show that man is capable of not being bad, I wonder if a &#8216;God is not great&#8217; type idea might work itself out.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s still a possibility of some kind of dualism (as loved by Hollywood), with the references that have been made.</p>
<p>I do like the last paragraph &#8211; it&#8217;s very likely that that might be the sort of thing that they are aiming at (and in the same time going &#8220;spiritual good, religion bad&#8221;, as mentioned by Amy above). Kind of reminds me of McLaren&#8217;s idea of Yaweh/Jesus vs Theos &#8211; it is the zeigeist (though its Marcion&#8217;s views as well, way back in the 200s), so it&#8217;s probably going to be the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8974</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8974</guid>
		<description>(SPOILER ALERT)

Notice the difference in Jacob&#039;s responses to when Ben Linus tried to kill him versus when Richard Alpert tried--he fought off Richard but didn&#039;t resist Ben.

Could they be setting Jacob up to be the god-character that is put to death at the hands of evil men in order to ultimately overcome evil (the man in black)?  

It will be interesting to see if Ben is redeemed through the murder of Jacob and is ultimately responsible for the downfall of the man in black.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(SPOILER ALERT)</p>
<p>Notice the difference in Jacob&#8217;s responses to when Ben Linus tried to kill him versus when Richard Alpert tried&#8211;he fought off Richard but didn&#8217;t resist Ben.</p>
<p>Could they be setting Jacob up to be the god-character that is put to death at the hands of evil men in order to ultimately overcome evil (the man in black)?  </p>
<p>It will be interesting to see if Ben is redeemed through the murder of Jacob and is ultimately responsible for the downfall of the man in black.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesus Embodies 100% Grace and 100% Truth &#124; Exodus International Blog</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8973</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesus Embodies 100% Grace and 100% Truth &#124; Exodus International Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8973</guid>
		<description>[...] by Alan, which he says all the time, and then went to my rss reader and found this post titled LOST, God, and the Justice/Grace Problem: We love a god of mercy, but fear a god of justice. Therefore, deny His justice and suddenly God [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Alan, which he says all the time, and then went to my rss reader and found this post titled LOST, God, and the Justice/Grace Problem: We love a god of mercy, but fear a god of justice. Therefore, deny His justice and suddenly God [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Amy Hall</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8972</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8972</guid>
		<description>David, I think the Man in Black symbolizes the worst of what our culture currently thinks of organized religion (specifically, Christianity)--he uses the threat of hell and judgment to manipulate people, he judged Eko way back when, he manipulates gullible people, etc. 

I don&#039;t think at all he&#039;s doing it in the name of justice. This is the problem. I think they&#039;ve separated justice from judgment in order to convey the idea that judgment is a bad thing.

I think that ultimately the idea will be: spirituality good, religion bad.

Albert, do not resist! No matter how it ends up now, it was still all worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I think the Man in Black symbolizes the worst of what our culture currently thinks of organized religion (specifically, Christianity)&#8211;he uses the threat of hell and judgment to manipulate people, he judged Eko way back when, he manipulates gullible people, etc. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think at all he&#8217;s doing it in the name of justice. This is the problem. I think they&#8217;ve separated justice from judgment in order to convey the idea that judgment is a bad thing.</p>
<p>I think that ultimately the idea will be: spirituality good, religion bad.</p>
<p>Albert, do not resist! No matter how it ends up now, it was still all worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: Albert Lee</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8969</link>
		<dc:creator>Albert Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8969</guid>
		<description>Great post, Amy!  

I&#039;ve personally resisted the temptation to start LOST, though, because I knew I would have to see it through to the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Amy!  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve personally resisted the temptation to start LOST, though, because I knew I would have to see it through to the end.</p>
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		<title>By: David C. Miller</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8968</link>
		<dc:creator>David C. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8968</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about this.  Does the Man in Black really judge and condemn evil?  He&#039;s killed people, sure, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s in the name of justice.  He doesn&#039;t have the moral authority to judge.

Beyond the split between grace and justice, another theme of the show is Free Will vs Determinism.  Though Jacob is sometimes seen as messing around with free will (he&#039;s been watching the Candidates a long time, he brought them to the island because they were Predestined, etc.) I&#039;m not convinced which of the two represents each side.

Didn&#039;t Jacob say last week that he wants to prove to The Man in Black that people can change moral courses of their own free will without outside manipulation or help?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about this.  Does the Man in Black really judge and condemn evil?  He&#8217;s killed people, sure, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s in the name of justice.  He doesn&#8217;t have the moral authority to judge.</p>
<p>Beyond the split between grace and justice, another theme of the show is Free Will vs Determinism.  Though Jacob is sometimes seen as messing around with free will (he&#8217;s been watching the Candidates a long time, he brought them to the island because they were Predestined, etc.) I&#8217;m not convinced which of the two represents each side.</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t Jacob say last week that he wants to prove to The Man in Black that people can change moral courses of their own free will without outside manipulation or help?</p>
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		<title>By: Amy Hall</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8966</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8966</guid>
		<description>Ha! Yes, I feel your pain. What&#039;s funny is that these shows start to become incoherent as soon as they start to get things wrong. It certainly seemed that Star Wars judged the Empire as being wrong. How can that be? And it seems to me that Jacob has been proved unmistakably wrong about sin--not just in real life, but even on LOST. 

It&#039;s possible they might find a way to pull their ideas together, but it&#039;s hard to see how they can do that at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! Yes, I feel your pain. What&#8217;s funny is that these shows start to become incoherent as soon as they start to get things wrong. It certainly seemed that Star Wars judged the Empire as being wrong. How can that be? And it seems to me that Jacob has been proved unmistakably wrong about sin&#8211;not just in real life, but even on LOST. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s possible they might find a way to pull their ideas together, but it&#8217;s hard to see how they can do that at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Williams</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/03/lost-god-and-the-justicegrace-problem/#comment-8965</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=5840#comment-8965</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the last few years have been rough for me. First, I learned that I was a Sith Lord because only the Sith believe in absolutes. Now, I&#039;ve learned that I may have more in common with the Man in Black than Jacob because the Man in Black believes all men to be corrupt.

*sigh*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the last few years have been rough for me. First, I learned that I was a Sith Lord because only the Sith believe in absolutes. Now, I&#8217;ve learned that I may have more in common with the Man in Black than Jacob because the Man in Black believes all men to be corrupt.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
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