Comments on: Torture, Killing, and Degrees http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/01/torture-killing-degrees/ A First Things Blog Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:35:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Jeremy Pierce http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/01/torture-killing-degrees/#comment-4927 Jeremy Pierce Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:57:23 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=3150#comment-4927 I avoid speaking of justice unless I want to spend a lot of time making clear what I mean. In philosophical circles nowadays, some people mean simple retribution. Others mean some kind of equality or fairness. Still others mean equality in distribution of resources. Some mean equal partnership in all cooperative ventures of society. Others define it in terms of morality, which they base in some kind of rights, either defined by what we would or should want for ourselves or defined in some more basic natural properties (the more rare way nowadays). Some define it in terms of morality but based on responsibilities, where everyone does what they ought. The biblical terms for justice often translated as righteousness. The concepts are certainly related, which is why I think those who tie justice to morality are in better shape than those who don't. But I find that most people don't know what I'm talking about when I speak of justice, especially if it involves any kind of retribution. We've lost that concept somehow with the majority of the population. I avoid speaking of justice unless I want to spend a lot of time making clear what I mean. In philosophical circles nowadays, some people mean simple retribution. Others mean some kind of equality or fairness. Still others mean equality in distribution of resources. Some mean equal partnership in all cooperative ventures of society. Others define it in terms of morality, which they base in some kind of rights, either defined by what we would or should want for ourselves or defined in some more basic natural properties (the more rare way nowadays). Some define it in terms of morality but based on responsibilities, where everyone does what they ought.

The biblical terms for justice often translated as righteousness. The concepts are certainly related, which is why I think those who tie justice to morality are in better shape than those who don’t. But I find that most people don’t know what I’m talking about when I speak of justice, especially if it involves any kind of retribution. We’ve lost that concept somehow with the majority of the population.

]]> By: Frank Turk http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/01/torture-killing-degrees/#comment-4904 Frank Turk Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:00:07 +0000 http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=3150#comment-4904 Why is it that this discussion is getting conducted like this:<blockquote>The key issue is that torture comes in degrees. Killing does too but not in the same sense. What makes an act of killing worse is how you do it, why you do it, and so on. But killing is killing. Torture can be fairly weakly torture, or it can be pretty awful torture. Killing can be worse because it also involves torture, but the killing itself is not worse.</blockquote>and so on -- but the simple word "justice", which is the actual Biblical mandate and premise for government, cannot be found or dealt with? Why do we not see that a government is either conducting itself <i>for the sake of justice</i>, or it is not? Why do we not want to think in terms of these simple categories? Why is it that this discussion is getting conducted like this:
The key issue is that torture comes in degrees. Killing does too but not in the same sense. What makes an act of killing worse is how you do it, why you do it, and so on. But killing is killing. Torture can be fairly weakly torture, or it can be pretty awful torture. Killing can be worse because it also involves torture, but the killing itself is not worse.

and so on — but the simple word “justice”, which is the actual Biblical mandate and premise for government, cannot be found or dealt with?

Why do we not see that a government is either conducting itself for the sake of justice, or it is not? Why do we not want to think in terms of these simple categories?

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