I commend to you this post by Albert Mohler and heartily concur with his wise assessment of the tragedy of Oral Robert’s ministry:
“In the end, however, Oral Roberts should be measured by his message. Though his claims of visions and healings drew deserved attention, along with both scrutiny and embarrassment, it was the core of his message that is most problematic. In his prime years, Roberts was the most significant agent for prosperity theology of his day. Prosperity theology teaches that God promises his people financial gain and bodily health. It is a false Gospel that turns the Gospel of Christ upside-down. The true Gospel offers forgiveness of sins and leads to a life of discipleship. Following Christ demands poverty more often than wealth, and we are not promised relief from physical ills, injury, sickness, or death. Christians die along with all other mortals, but we are promised the gift of eternal life in Christ. There is tragedy in the sight of the City of Faith turned from a hospital into an office complex. In recent years scandal has erupted at Oral Roberts University, though stability may have been recently regained. Most Americans probably remember Oral Roberts, if at all, through his television ministry of decades past. Others will associate him only with the bizarre — visions of a 900-ft Jesus and the rest. But the greatest tragedy in all this is the perpetuation of prosperity theology, passed on by Oral Roberts to a new generation. I am thankful for every sinner who came to know the Gospel of Christ through the preaching of Oral Roberts, and I heard him preach about salvation in ways that were true and powerful. But I can only lament the prosperity theology that he leaves in his long shadow.”
December 16th, 2009 | 6:41 pm | #1
Tonight, Baylor plays Oral Roberts U. in women’s basketball here on campus.
Don’t expect a miracle.
December 17th, 2009 | 12:52 am | #2
The game’s over. No miracle. Baylor blew them out: 101-76.
December 17th, 2009 | 9:09 am | #3
This morning I read the third letter of John, where I was intrigued to find this bit:
“The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” (vv. 1-2)
Health and wealth? Above all things?
December 17th, 2009 | 9:38 am | #4
There are a few things to note about 3 John 2. It is not just about financial prosperity, but about prosperity in ALL things. IOW, it is neither limited to finances, nor are finances excluded. It is about prosperity — doing well — in every area of life. It is also important to note that it begins with prosperity of soul, the well-being on the inner man. As Proverbs 4:23 reminds us, “Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life.”
There are many Scriptures which speak about the prosperity and provision God has for His people. Paul tells us, “God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work” (2 Corinthians 9:8 — in context, Paul was using this as an encouragement for the Corinthian believers to give of their resources to the collection he was taking up for Jerusalem).
But such Scriptures often get glossed over by the unbiblical idea that God wants His people in poverty. That is the irony and the tragedy here. Poverty means not having enough to meet one’s needs. But God tells us has provision for ALL our needs (Philippians 4:19), and that is something different from poverty. Indeed, as the above Scripture shows, God wants to give us all sufficiency in all things, and even abundance (more than enough) so that we not only have our own needs met, we are able to help others in need.
Now, all of this is quite in line with what Oral Roberts consistently taught about prosperity. Indeed, it was through his heirs in ministry that the Scriptures above were brought to my attention.
December 17th, 2009 | 9:42 am | #5
This line of thinking has worked well for the likes of Roberts, Tilton, until he got nailed for mail fraud, and Joyce Meier, and many others of their ilk, with their multi-million dollar estates, high lifestyle and such, living off the donations of people living in low-income situations. The WOF movement has resulted in scandalous lives of those advocating it and the sad misleading of many people who were told “name it and claim it” and did, only to have their hopes crushed, their confidence placed in material blessings, and so forth. The WOF movement is one of the more successful scams launched under the guise of Christianity.
December 17th, 2009 | 10:02 am | #6
I couldn’t agree with you more, Rev. McCain, about how problematic the WOF movement is. I have heard of people who will not admit that they have a cold or other kind of sickness because if they do so, they will be bringing more sickness onto themselves. And I have heard of people who won’t get medical help because of something they were taught in terms of the WOF movement. And I have even heard of businessmen teaching that God wants us to have blessings and wealth, so why don’t we invest in their business!
As I understand it, when James and John asked to sit at the right hand of Christ in the kingdom of heaven, He told them that to do such a thing would require huge demands of them. And none of the apostles in the Bible lived easy lives at all. St. Paul, who is one of the most important figures in the entire history of the world, was persecuted and beaten for his faith. And St. Stephen was martyred as was St. Peter. These people in the Bible are models for me. Not the Joyce Meyers or the Oral Roberts of the world.
I do believe that belief in Christ has brought me comfort and joy in a way that I never thought possible. But my life is still filled with struggles and hardship, and I know things will not be perfect until Christ comes again. If we tell people (especially newer Christians) that their lives will be perfect because they believe in Christ, these people will easily be in danger of falling away from the faith when they encounter hardships.
December 17th, 2009 | 10:04 am | #7
And I also wonder if any of these people in the WOF movement is aware of the Beatitudes. As I understand them, the Beatitudes do not imply that it will be easy for us to follow Christ.
December 17th, 2009 | 10:31 am | #8
Paul,
I have brought for your consideration Scriptures that speak of the provision and prosperity God has for his people, a prosperity that goes far beyond finances and begins with prosperity of the heart. And I can tell that it is the message that Roberts taught, and most of the ones I have seen who follow in his ministry teach. So, if you want to criticize the message, that is what you have to deal with.
This “line of thinking” has worked very well for many people who have followed supported the ministries of Roberts and Meyer and other WOF teachers (leaving off Tilton and your attempt to implicate the others in guilt-by-association). Many have been blessed and have experienced the prosperity of God in their spiritual growth, in their bodily health, in their marriages and families, in their personal ministries and also in their businesses and finances. They have learned the biblical truth that God not only wants them to do good, He wants them to do well.
Though you may wish to caricature the WOF as living high on the backs of the poor, and though that is the boilerplate for media hit pieces on a variety of successful ministries (except left-wing ones), I do not think it is an accurate portrayal. Specifically, and to the point of this thread, I do not think it is an accurate portrayal of Oral Roberts and his legacy.
But leaving aside the personalities and ad hominems, there remains the message of Scripture, which time and again reveals the provision and prosperity God has for His people. Not poverty and lack, as some religious critics would have us believe — a message that tends to keep the poor in poverty and lack.
December 17th, 2009 | 10:57 am | #9
Jeff, the only way you can support your position is by deliberately ignoring or severely misinterpreting the Scripture and the Lord Christ Himself, who said, “In this world, you will have trouble….” [John 16:33]. The fraud perpetuated by Oral Roberts and others like him would be a crime if it were not “covered” by freedom of religion. Let’s see the documented proof for real miracles, like: raising a dead person to life, healing a clinically blind person, restoring an amputated limb. The Scriptures time and again reveal that the “prosperity” God gives to us are the gifts of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Christ. Physical and material blessings “fall on the just and the unjust.” I’m not aware of any “religious critic” who is asserting that God wills for us poverty. That’s a red herring.
December 17th, 2009 | 11:07 am | #10
Allison,
Yes, the WOF movement is quite aware of the Beatitudes, thanks. Indeed, those are counted as truths to be relied upon. The poor do not remain in poverty and lack but receive the kingdom of God, and all needful things added to it (see Matthew 6:33). In the kingdom of God, those who mourn are comforted, and the spirit of heaviness is replaced with the garment of praise (see Isaiah 61:3). The meek inherit the earth. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness and justice do not remain hungry and thirsty but find that hunger satisfied. The merciful do not go without mercy, but experience the rich mercy of God. The pure in heart see God (prosperity of soul, indeed!). The peacemakers are blessed; they are called sons of God and manifest the peace of God in their lives. Being persecuted for the sake of righteousness (God’s way of doing and being right) — the kingdom of God belongs to them.
WOF does not teach that there will be no persecutions or problems. Quite the opposite. They recognize that we are in a spiritual warfare and that the enemy wants to stop the advance of the Church and the Gospel into the world., so there will indeed be conflicts that arise. But they teach that wherever there is a need, God has provision; wherever there is an affliction, God has healing; wherever there is warfare, God has victory. As the psalm writer says, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all” (Palm 34:19).
Regarding sickness, WOF does not teach that one should deny that sickness exists. Rather, it teaches that where sickness is identified, our focus should then turn to the healing God has for us. Nor does it teach that one should never go the doctor or take medications. Early “faith healers” (I prefer “divine healing” to “faith healing”) of the late 19th and early 20th centuries sometimes took the stance that it was a lack of faith to go see a doctor or take medicine, but that was not Oral Roberts teaching. Indeed, WOF and others in divine healing ministry recognize that there is a place for doctors and medicine. Even when someone believes he or she has experienced healing in one of their meetings, they are often encouraged to go see their doctor to confirm their healing and cautioned that they should not quite taking their medication until they have done so.
December 17th, 2009 | 11:12 am | #11
I’ll lay the challenge before you again, Jeff. Point us to documentation of raising dead corpses to life, calling rotting bodies out of graves, and restoring amputated limbs, and sight to the clinically blind. Then I would be more open to considering the claims of Mr. Roberts and all other pentecostal “healers.”
December 17th, 2009 | 11:29 am | #12
Well spoken here again, Rev. McCain: “Physical and material blessings ‘fall on the just and the unjust.’” As I recall St. Augustine refers to this very idea in the very early part of The City of God–and he takes this idea from the gospel of Matthew, though I do not remember the exact part of Matthew. I prefer how Augustine looks at Scripture. I think I will stick with him.
December 17th, 2009 | 11:41 am | #13
There’s another Oral Roberts thread on the Evangel blog, below. In that thread I posted:
“Rev. Roberts and Word of Faith ministers often state (or stated) that they are (or were) proclaiming the “uncompromised” and “uncompromising” Word of God. In other words, they are, believing in Scripture Only, proclaiming the “True Gospel” and it is THE REST OF YOU, the “mainline” church (you have to imagine the scornful tone behind that phrase), who have neglected and even twisted the Gospel, the true Word of God.
I have a basis by which to judge that claim. And you?
In other words, your Sola Scriptura reading of the Bible is better than their Sola Scriptura reading of the Bible because…..?”
So far no gripping answers have arisen in the other thread. Perhaps here? Really, all I want is for some hardcore Sola Scriptura Protestant to admit that they have to use Tradition to rightly interpret the Bible. Any takers? :)
December 17th, 2009 | 12:02 pm | #14
Paul,
WOF teachers recognize the truth of Jesus’ words in John 16:33, “In the world you will have tribulation ….” I hear them point this out pretty regularly (also that Jesus promised us persecutions; Mark 10:30). But they also recognize the truth of the rest of that verse, which you have neglected to finish: “… but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” Tribulation? Yes. Persecutions? Yes. But also overcoming, and that by faith (1 John 5:4). Made more than conquerors (Romans 8:37). Turning to God, resisting the devil and his works and seeing him flee (James 4:7). Casting all cares and distracting circumstances over onto God, because He is taking care of us (1 Peter 5:7).
So neither I nor the WOF ignore that verse. Nor have you demonstrated any misinterpretation of Scripture on my part.
As for religious critics who say that God has poverty for us, one of the critics I had in mind is Al Mohler, where you have quoted him above in the idea that following Christ “demands poverty.” Poverty is living in need, lack or want. But what I find in Scripture is quite different – provision, even abundance (see references I have cited in my posts above).
The provision God has for us is not just for forgiveness and eternal life. It is for whatever need we may have. Whether it be food or clothing or a place to live, God has promise a provision. “Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you” (Matthew 6:33). Clearly, from the context, He is not just referring to forgiveness of sins and eternal life, but the question of “what shall we eat, what shall we drink, what shall we wear” (v. 31). When we take the kingdom of God and His way of doing things as our priority, we don’t have to worry about such needs – they will be met.
I’ll remind you again of 2 Corinthians 9:8, which you have failed to address: “God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you ALWAYS having ALL sufficiency in ALL things, may have and ABUNDANCE for EVERY good work” (I find that to be an excellent description of prosperity – every need met, plus more than enough in order to provide for the needs and good works of others). As I noted earlier, the context here is about material resources—finances. Paul is taking up a collection for the benefit of Jewish believer in Jerusalem. He is encouraging them to give generously and cheerfully. “He who sows sparingly will reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully” (v. 6). It does not take the context well into account to suppose that he is referring only to forgiveness of sins and eternal life. He is talking about giving generously of material substance cheerfully, with the confidence that God will meet all our needs, material as well as spiritual (Paul was no Gnostic).
“My God shall supply all your need according to His riche in glory by Christ Jesus” (Phil 4:19). Again, the context is about finances — their material support of Paul’s ministry, even employing the accounting terms of “giving and receiving”.
Yes, physical and material blessing falls on both the just and the unjust. I was not aware that anyone here was contesting that. I know I wasn’t. Nor does WOF. It is the graciousness of God that He has promised to take care of the just, or righteous (and through faith in Jesus Christ, we are accounted as righteous), and we can count on Him to make good on those promises. And God is also gracious to cause such blessing to fall on the unjust. Perhaps sometimes as a collateral effect of blessing the just; perhaps sometimes because the goodness of God leads to repentance; perhaps sometimes simply because He is good and compassionate. So I don’t find that bringing this up contradicts or detracts from my point in any way. Rather, it reinforces it.
December 17th, 2009 | 1:08 pm | #15
Paul,
I will be happy to supply some examples of healings and even of the dead being raised in the history of the Church. As it happens, I have written a book compiling a number of sources throughout Church history describing these and other miraculous phenomena (Miracles and Manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the History of the Church
First, we know that “God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil, for God was with Him” (Acts 10:38). And He was able to raise the dead. Of course, we understand that Jesus is both fully divine as well as fully human. But note the specific reason Peter gives for these things: Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power” and “God was with Him.”
Next, there are the apostles, who were merely men. But they were anointed with the Holy Spirit and power (Acts 1:8) and God was with them, so they also were able to go about doing good healing diseases and expelling demonic spirits, and even raising the dead. We can find examples in the Gospels and in Acts.
There are numerous references in the Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers to miracles, healing, exorcisms, and even raising the still happening in their days.
For example, Ireneaus speaks of raising the dead as something that occurred not only in the days of the apostles, but also in his own day. That it was done “frequently in the brotherhood” through much fasting and prayer. (Against Heresies 2:31:2)
Gregory Nazianzus speaks of many healings and other miracles, including the miraculous healing ministry of Basil of Cappodocia (Panegyric on Saint Basil). Sozomen, early Church historian, in a section on Naziansus, records that a pregnant woman had fallen from a great height while the church was meeting. Though she was dead, she was restored to life, with her infant safe, as the congregation prayed (Ecclesiastical History, Book 7 Chapter 5).
Gregory of Nyssa writes of numerous healing miracles worked by his sister Macrina (The Life of Macrina).
St. Augustine’s cites numerous healings, exorcisms and at least for people being raised from the dead (City of God, Book 22 Chapter 8).
Many other examples of miraculous healings can be found among the Desert Fathers.
Martin of Tours performed many miracles, healings, exorcisms and raise at least three people back to life. (Sulpicius Severus, On the Life of Martin of Tours. Also, the First, Second and Third Dialogues, inter alia)
Benedict of Nursia also worked miracles, healings and raised the dead in the 6th century. (Recorded by Gregory the Great, throughout his Second Book of Dialogues)
Bernard of Clairvaux worked many healing miracles in the 12th century.
There is not enough space or time here to list all the healing miracles and deliverances I have compiled in my book (which is why I make them available in my book.
The Scottish Covenanters (16th-17th centuries), in addition to the many prophetic utterances and visions, experience numerous other miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Biographica Scotiana (a.k.a., Scots Worthies) records many of these, include how one of them, John Welch, prayed a young man back to life.
There are also many testimonies of the dead being raised in the 20th century and also today. I can give you references if you want.
I have also created a blog to highlight various people being healing of various afflictions through Christian prayer in the name of Jesus. I just linked to a video this morning that I came across on YouTube. It shows a baby girl who was in a coma caused by her baby-sitter shaking here. The congregation came together for an extended time in their worship service to pray over her, and the girl roused out of her coma. You can find this and other testimonies at http://www.holyspiritmiracles.com
God is the same today as He was yesterday. He has not ceased working miracles, healings, exorcisms, and even raising the dead. He does it through the mighty name of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit, the prayers of His people and the hands of His servants.
December 17th, 2009 | 2:08 pm | #16
James, I think you knew what I was asking for, but if not: I would like to see hard factual evidence of Oral Roberts and company raising the dead, replacing amputated limbs, etc. For that matter, I’d even settle for proof that they changed water into wine.
December 17th, 2009 | 3:27 pm | #17
Well, Paul, I thought perhaps you were looking for any documentation that God is still in the healing business since the days of Jesus and the apostles. I run into some Christians who say that He isn’t. In Charismatic circles, that is usually referred to as cessationism, the belief that the visibly miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as healing and exorcism and other workings of miracles have ceased. I didn’t know (and still don’t know) if that describes your view or not, so I brought testimonies from Church history that demonstrate that the Holy Spirit still manifests in the people of God in those ways. Because if you are not willing to believe God stills works healing miracles through his people, there is nothing that would convince you, not even if it happened to you. It is always easy for a skeptic to come up with some reason for not believing. (Please note that I am not saying you are skeptical that God still heals through His people today. I’m just laying out my reasoning for my earlier post.)
Regarding raising the dead and restoring amputated limbs, I don’t know that Oral Roberts has ever claimed to have done such. If you know of any such claims, perhaps you could direct me to them.
As for other healings, I could find you some testimonies of people who have received bodily healing through his ministry. But would you believe them or would you say that they are lying, or mistaken about being sick, or mistaken about being healed? And what should I do with the numerous testimonies I have heard over the years concerning Robert’s healing ministry — should I write them all off as liars and fakers, or else mistaken?
I could locate some video clips showing people getting healed at his meetings. But would you believe them, or would you say that they faked their afflictions or were planted in the healing lines? Or that the clip was doctored up to appear as healing? Or that there was some sleight of hand?
IF you believe that God still works healing miracles through His people, what evidence would you require before you would be willing to believe it had occurred in a particular instance through the ministry of a particular individual?
BTW, my names is Jeff, not James.
December 18th, 2009 | 9:08 am | #18
Reverend McCain,
Thank you for your post. I have appreciated scrolling through some of the recent conversations on this blog site and I am glad to see that you’ve joined in on this exchange.
@ Jeff Doles,
I would like to add a thank you for your detailed explanation above but I must disagree with your assertions. The way I see it, the problem with what some call the “Prosperity Gospel” or the “WOF Movement” is their presumption that someone other than God can know exactly, 100% reliably, in every single case, what specific physical or material blessings are considered “good” or “prosperity” or “sufficient” for a particular individual. Most of your references to prosperity, good, healing, deliverance, victory, etc., refer to God’s gracious gift of the spiritual blessings of saving faith in Christ and forgiveness that is the promise of eternal life with the Lord in heaven. Your other references were either promises made for specific people, at specific times, for specific reasons, or general promises to supply physical and material “needs”. God is the only One who really knows what a believer “needs” to retain his or her faith (I realize some don’t believe that faith can be lost but in my view Scripture is clear that it can be). God supplies those needs for the retention and increase of a person’s faith, on a case by case basis. In fact, physical and material needs are usually supplied inversely to the WOF claims because those with the weakest faith need more physical and material things for security blankets in order to retain and increase their faith while those with the strongest faith need less of a worldly security blanket. The blessings God gives each individual to serve his or her neighbor, including the allowance of suffering, may not comport with anybody’s specific prayer requests or expectations, regardless of how strong the individual’s faith is.
Just as you have done, someone could list all the biblical figures, prominent figures in the history of the Christian Church, and present day Christians, whose faith has been as highly esteemed as anyone’s, but who did not receive the relief from suffering for which they prayed. Instead of a long list though, I think maybe I need only one example, arguably the best testimony that the amount or level of faith in an individual does not determine whether he or she will receive the specific temporal gifts he or she requests from God, whether that be healing, or money, or more food, or relief from any other kind of earthly suffering, including pain leading to temporal death. The testimony is from Jesus Himself, in Gethsemane (Mt 26:39-46). Certainly Jesus had perfect faith yet His prayer that the cup of suffering pass from Him, was answered by God the Father with a “No”. Jesus understood that God’s will might not always be the relief from earthly suffering for which we cry out to Him. We should ask God for what we think we need and even for what we want, but God indeed has His own reasons for His answers and for allowing the suffering that He allows. Suffering is all a result of sin in one form or another, but degrees of suffering do not necessarily, directly correspond to degrees of actual sins. Very often God may not reveal to us the reason one person is appointed to suffer more than another one. That is where the trust of faith comes in. This is the type of “poverty” that God speaks about: Mt 10:39.
@ Craig Payne (#13),
In interpreting Scripture, I would say that all believers use a variety of tools and resources that God provides. Wisdom is a gift; growth in wisdom and faith are gifts, and in studying Scripture, believers pray that the Holy Spirit will lead them to God’s truth as far as it is revealed. The communication of wisdom may be an art. Now if you are asking whether Lutherans, for example, believe that certain confessions of faith are truer, more accurate expressions of Scripture than other expressions, then the answer is, Yes.
December 18th, 2009 | 10:39 am | #19
I think it is a sort of gnosticism that would attempt to simply spiritualize all the references in Scripture to healing, prosperity and provision, especially when in context as much or more to the material aspects of God’s blessing. Certainly there are spiritual applications that can be made, but it does violence to the texts of Scripture, which does not consider creation itself to be evil, to limit application only to the spiritual. WOF certainly recognizes the spiritual applications of such texts, but also acknowledges the material aspects presented in such texts. It finds both the spiritual realm as well as the physical realm of God’s creation to be good and that the blessings of both are to be enjoyed by the people of God.
December 18th, 2009 | 11:52 am | #20
This discussion is fascinating and disgusting at the same time. Lot’s of heat and not much light. However, what light is here has been presented by Mr. Doles. He’s seems very atypical of the common straw-man caricatures of those who hold such views. I also found his tone to be more irenic and reasonable. Just an observation, the merits of each side of the argument notwithstanding. I am more likely to listen to the reasonable rather than the merely emotional. This is quite ironic, since Rev. McCain, in particular, is of a high-church (read intellectual) tradition (Lutheranism). ( I know whereof I speak, I grew up Lutheran and my ancestry is 90% Lutheran on both sides as far back as geneaology can trace. Emotions were veboten.) As far as the actual poverty/prosperity dichotomy goes I defer to Proverbs 30:8.
December 18th, 2009 | 12:15 pm | #21
Thanks for the kind words, Drew.
Yes, I think Prov 30:8-9 (they go together) bring out something important: “Give me neither poverty nor riches, lest I be full and deny You, and say, ‘Who is the LORD?’ Or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of the LORD.”
It highlights the truth that true prosperity must begin in the heart, or as 3 John 2 puts it, “Even as your soul prospers.” Without a heart properly aligned with the heart of God, any other success or prosperity would just tear us up. We would be consuming it for our own lusts and forgetting the gracious God who made us. That would be tragedy indeed.
So, if our heart is in such a state that prosperity and success would cause us to forget God and ruin our lives, then that is certainly a big problem — bigger than questions about prosperity and success. It signals that we need our hearts put right with God.
But when our hearts come into alignment with the heart of God and His purposes, then He can entrust us with resources for His kingdom. For then we are in a position to embrace the abounding grace God has for us so that we, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have abundance for every good work (2 Cor 9:8).
December 18th, 2009 | 1:18 pm | #22
Mr. Doles, I had a look at The Faith Log out of a spirit of curiosity. What struck me was that it took 21 posts, totaling more than ten thousand words, approximately three months worth of posts, before there was any clear statement of the fact that Jesus died for our sins.
You say, “WOF teachers recognize the truth of Jesus’ words in John 16:33, ‘In the world you will have tribulation.’” I do not doubt this. However, you also say, “I hear them point this out pretty regularly…” This I can’t relate to. The problem is not in claiming there are material as well as spiritual aspects to scripture’s references to “healing, prosperity and provision,” but the vast overemphasis of this, to the detriment of acknowledging believers’ experience of suffering and tribulation, and most gravely to the detriment of acknowledging the heart of the gospel. To use a well-worn tactic from the young Reformed handbook, I’ll quote Spurgeon:
The heart of the gospel is redemption, and the essence of redemption is the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. They who preach this truth preach the gospel in whatever else they may be mistaken; but they who preach not the atonement, whatever else they declare, have missed the soul and substance of the divine message.
I’m not accusing anyone of denying or ignoring entirely the atonement. However I do not see it receiving the attention it is due. That there be no confusion: I offer these criticisms respectfully.
December 18th, 2009 | 5:25 pm | #23
Jeff (re #19)
If, by any chance, you are referring to my previous comment, I think it’s quite a stretch to take my words and equate them to Gnosticism. I did not “spiritualize all the references in Scripture to healing, prosperity and provision” or “limit application only to the spiritual” all of God’s blessings recorded in Scripture. I mentioned in my last comment, and will restate it here that there are plenty of God’s physical and material blessings recorded in Scripture but my point is, what does that prove? What I said about that is that the citations you listed do not prove your point and I explained why. You have commented on another post, “The reason WOF believe God wants His people to be in health and have prosperity, even financial prosperity, is because they find these things expressed in many places throughout the Scriptures.” So because God records accounts of physical and material blessings in His Word, that means He wants everyone to have those particular blessings? Clearly, not. Interesting that Scripture contains many more accounts of faithful suffering than faithful “well-being”. You have used the term “well-being” to define prosperity this way, “in WOF teaching, prosperity is about much more than financial well-being; it is about well-being in all aspects of life: soul prosperity, family, relationships, ministry, etc.” For those who are not experts on the WOF movement, I think it would be helpful if you could describe the precise distinction between the person who gains prosperity and the person who does not, according to WOF.
December 18th, 2009 | 5:32 pm | #24
(Re #20),
Drew, it amuses me that you write a paragraph of emotional opinions (+ one Proverb) and then label logical arguments that are on point as “emotional”. Curious perspective but I guess if these issues reach your emotions, that’s not such a bad thing. Actually, the issue isn’t one of a rich/poor dichotomy at all, it is one of faith/works (i.e. saving faith/work righteousness termed “faith”). That is honestly the heart of the matter here if you take a closer look.
December 18th, 2009 | 5:34 pm | #25
Drew, once a person has been “bitten” by the WOF bug it is a hard cold to shake. Interesting how you felt a need to engage in the dreaded ad hominem you claim to dislike in your response to my comments, rather than deal with the substance of the remark. And, sorry to hear you grew up in a situation where emotions were forbidden. Were you raised by Vulcans? I’m not a German Lutheran. I’m Irish. We are emotional. Pentecostals don’t get “dibs” on emotions.
I’m still waiting for the WOF chap to pony up the proof that Roberts and his fellow “healers” actually have raised the dead, restored an amputated limb, gave sight to a clinically blind person, or even just changed a few loaves of bread into enough food to feed thousands. That’s all I’m asking for. You’d think with all the talk of how their hearts are aligned with God’s heart, God would at least let them do a few signs like this.
December 19th, 2009 | 2:02 pm | #26
Paul, you say you want proof, but you did not bother answer the question I asked you above concerning it. So, I’ll repeat:
IF you believe that God still works healing miracles through His people, what evidence would you require before you would be willing to believe it had occurred in a particular instance through the ministry of a particular individual?
December 21st, 2009 | 10:52 am | #27
Zack,
Thanks for visiting my blog (click on my name at the top of this post for the blog address), and thanks for your comments. I welcome anyone to come and see whether your comments are well-placed.
As a Bible teacher, I teach on a variety of passages and I seek the emphasis of those individual passages. For example, you might notice, if you look extensively in my blog, that I deal quite a lot with the psalms (this arises quite naturally for me as I pray through the Book of Psalms each month). Consequently, I deal with the many themes of those psalms, some of which have a more direct gospel trajectory than others. And I also deal with a lot of other Scriptures about various issues of faith. I have been writing this blog for five years now, and if you go through, I think you will find many places where I deal with the work of Christ on the cross on our behalf and what that means for our redemption, salvation, forgiveness of sins, reconciliation.
December 21st, 2009 | 11:33 am | #28
Karyn,
The passages I have brought up above, I have dealt with in context, particularly the financial contexts of both 2 Cor 9:6-8 and Phil 4:19. Is it your contention that the promises given there are only for the Corinthians and the Philippians, respectively? Rather, I think they are for all believers, for God is no “respecter of persons.” He is also the same today as He was yesterday. So when Paul says that those who sow bountifully will also reap bountifully (bear in mind the financial context), that is not just a promise for the Corinthians, it is for us also. And when he tells the Philippian believers, who have supported his ministry, that God will supply all theirs needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus, that promise applies also to us — God will meet ALL our needs.
According to the WOF teaching on prosperity that I have received, prosperity is when you are living with a vibrant faith and hope in God, bearing the fruit of the Spirit in your life, walking in love toward God and others, holding no unforgiveness against those who have wronged you, experiencing peace and joy in your life. Prosperity is having a healthy, strong marriage, healthy relationship with your children, your children walking with the Lord. It is being out of debt, being able to take care of your bills and having resources besides to give to every good work the Lord leads you. It is being able give graciously and lend generously. When one begins to do well in those areas, one begins to know the prosperity God has for us, the abundance of life Jesus brings.
Good WOF teaching is well aware that prosperity is very much more than just financial; it is about doing well in every aspect of life. But just as prosperity is not by any means limited to finances, neither are finances excluded from prosperity.
Psalm 1 gives us a good idea of what prosperity looks like. Also Psalm 103:1-5, Psalm 112 and Psalm 128, among others.
It does not mean that there are never any problems, that there are no tribulations, no persecutions. Indeed, Jesus promised us we would have persecution in this world, and WOF often points this out. Just as the children of Israel had to overcome enemies in the Promised Land, so we also have situations and circumstances to overcome.
What WOF teaches is that God has given us everything we need to overcome. That in Jesus Christ we are more than conquerors. That faith is the victory that overcomes the world. So of course there are problems and persecutions. If there were nothing to overcome, we would not be overcomers. So while WOF recognizes that there will be problems we must face, we do not have to be overcome by them; rather, we can overcome them by faith and the provision of God.
Peace be with you.
Jeff
December 21st, 2009 | 6:01 pm | #29
Jeff, you are dodging the question. I know why. You can’t produce a scintilla of evidence that Mr. Roberts and his heirs have raised a dead person, restored an amputated limb, etc.
What a legalistic and dreary religion you have embraced. It is not Biblical Christianity, that much is sure.
Good luck pursuing that “perfect life” you strive for. You either have to ignore your sinful condition, or make believe it is not there, to have this nirvana like experience of which you speak.
But that’s WOF for you. Pick what is preferred, discard what is not.
December 21st, 2009 | 8:51 pm | #30
As I told you above, I can get you testimonies and show you videos of people being healed. There is one testimony of a man who was killed in a car accident, was pronounced dead, was primitively embalmed (this was in Africa) and was raised back to life through prayer in Jesus’ name.
You have me rolling on the floor laughing with your comment that I have embraced a dreary and legalistic religion. Far from it, Paul. I embrace a God who saves, heals, delivers, and restores His people through faith in Jesus Christ. I see that God is still a God of miracles, not just theoretically, but truly and actually. And I embrace His Word, which is full of life and joy for those who believe.
Once I was a sinner, now I have been redeemed and declared righteous — justified in Jesus Christ, who carried my sin in His body and put it on the Cross. God no longer counts me a sinner but as righteous.
Don’t wish me luck — I don’t believe in it. Rather, I believe in the blessing God has for all His people.
I think I am done trying to discuss anything with you, Paul. I have tried to be pleasant, patient and respectful, but all I have met in you is condescension (and I am not the only one who has noticed that).
So I will simply say, Peace be with you, and Have a blessed Christmas.
December 22nd, 2009 | 6:41 am | #31
I was raised “Pentecostal” Christian and believed that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation and also our physical healing. I am almost 70 years now and my Father who was a preacher died of Colorectal cancer, I to had the same cancer in 2008 but the operation was in time and it had not spread to my Lympnodes so I did not have to take Chemo. I do not fully understand why my Jesus allowed me to get cancer and not heal me except just maybe he wanted me to experience it so I would have more compassion on others with cancer. Another thought would be I did not pray enough or fast. The way I feel about it is just like Job, though God slay me yet will I trust him. Right now I love him more than I ever have in my life, he is my soon coming King and I can not wait to bow down before him and kiss his feet and spend most of eternity praiseing him.
December 22nd, 2009 | 10:36 am | #32
Jeff, I do not deny that miracles can, and in fact, do, happen. I’m aware of many situations where God granted healing to people who asked him. He does what He does, where and when He chooses to do it. What bothers me about the WOF movement and “faith healers” is that there are many documented and well known situations where they are fakes and false teachers/prophets. I think the previous comment in this discussion, pointing how the blog site you link to reporting “healings” never really managed to get around to mentioning Christ for pages upon pages of “testimonies.” This is a sign something is not right.
I believe the spectacular miracles of Christ and the first Apostles were signs pointing to Christ’s authority as the Son of God and signs affirming the authority of the Apostolic witness, which remains for all times, the authoritative revelation of the Gospel. I have heard stories of spectacular miracles from the mission field, where a sign would be a powerful way to establish the authority of the preaching of the Gospel among unreached people.
I remain firmly skeptical, however, of the WOF emphasis here in this country, which, by your description, throws so much on to the individual, and, in my view does not put Christ and the Gospel, front and center. When “healing” becomes the main focus and “prosperity” as you have described it, I do not find this to be a Biblical approach to the Gospel.
I affirm and say a loud “Amen!” to your remarks about how you have been redeemed and declared righteous, justified in Jesus Christ! Praise God for His mercy.
A blessed and happy Christmas to you, and yours, too!
December 22nd, 2009 | 11:31 pm | #33
Jeff, (Re #28)
It took me a while to get back here. Well, feels like I’m late and the party’s over. Alright, here are my final comments on the passages you listed and then I’ll have to sign off.
The Apostles, including St. Paul, did not seek prosperity as a primary goal or encourage desire for prosperity. Preaching the Gospel was the primary focus of their ministry. You have expressed the idea that God promises to overcome troubles, which is true. When sin affects a Christian’s life, and it will do so every day, it is overcome first through the promise of the Gospel. The promises of prosperity for those who fear, love and obey God are secondary to the promise of the Gospel. Paul, Elijah, and Elisha were the opposite of financially wealthy but Paul could say, “. . . yet possessing everything.” 2 Cor 6:10
Phil 4:19 applies to all believers but it does not say anything about prosperity. God promises to meet our “needs”. The first focus is on eternal needs but God is the one who determines what each individual’s bodily “needs” are. In Phil 4:11, St. Paul described the faith God produced in him that was able to be content in any situation. Faith is a gift from God and produces fruit but the fruit varies from one to another. Love, forgiveness, peace, joy grow as faith grows but no matter how much they grow, they will be imperfect.
The theme of 2 Cor 9:6-8 is generosity in giving. It follows that if God supplies all of our needs (sufficiency), there will always be opportunities to do some good work with whatever we have been given. St. Paul was exhorting these people to resist the temptation to store up treasures for themselves. God promises earthly rewards for obeying His commandments but we only keep them imperfectly. For example, if gaining or keeping any earthly reward becomes more valuable to you than God’s promise of the forgiveness in Christ that brings future glory in heaven, then you may reap consequences of that sin instead of the earthly rewards you sought. Same thing goes for any desire to glorify yourself more than God with the prosperity he gives you.
“Prosperity” in Psalm 1 refers to the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer to faithfully serve the Lord. In Psalm 103:1-5, we are reminded to thank and praise God for the benefits He has given us and verses 3-5 are David’s thanks for his own personal blessings. Psalms 112 and 128 are poetic images of a person who fears God and who God blesses through His graciousness.
The tragedy of Oral Roberts is that he caused terrible harm to a great many people in the way he distorted God’s Word and His promises of prosperity. WOF teachings that leave people with false impressions and expose followers to the same risks are unworthy of support.
Thanks for the discussion and I wish you the best in Christ Jesus.
December 23rd, 2009 | 7:55 am | #34
Karyn,
The understanding of prosperity I work with, and one which I see taught by the WOF teachers I give ear to, is that prosperity is doing well. As I have repeatedly pointed out, it is not at all limited to finances (nor does it exclude finances).
So, having all needs met according to Gods riches in glory in Christ Jesus (Phil 4:19) — that is doing well. (I might point out that Paul wrote that, not only in a financial context, but to a group of people who were supporting his ministry. See verse 15-18, and note also the language of “giving and receiving” in verse 15; the Greek words are terms of accounting).
And always having all sufficiency in all things (2 Cor 9:8) — that is doing well. And having plenty more besides for every good work — that is doing well.
Having all sins forgiven, having all diseases healed, being redeemed from destruction, crowned with lovingkindness and tender mercies, having one’s “mouth” (desires) satisfied with good things (Psalm 103:1-5) — that is doing well.
Experiencing the blessings named in Psalm 112: 1-9 and Psalm 128:1-6 — that is doing well. Again, I think it does damage to the text to try to reduce it merely to spiritual metaphor as if it had nothing to do with material blessings. What do you think the blessed man in Psalm 112 lends in verse 5 and disperses abroad and gives to the poor in verse 12? Surely it is some of the material blessing he has received, the wealth and riches in his house, the overflow of his prosperity so that it becomes a blessing to others.
The blessings and provisions of God are not just limited to the spiritual dimension but reach into the physical realm as well, because we are not just disembodied spirits, but also flesh and blood.
Have a Merry Christmas.
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