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	<title>Comments on: Justification: Here I Stand</title>
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	<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Doles</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2865</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Doles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2865</guid>
		<description>I think what Wright is saying about justification is that it is God&#039;s verdict delivered to us ahead of time. It is given  in view of Jesus&#039; faithfulness at the cross, and all who are in Him by faith in Him receive it. In the end, at the judgment seat, this verdict will be proven to be true because of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what Wright is saying about justification is that it is God&#8217;s verdict delivered to us ahead of time. It is given  in view of Jesus&#8217; faithfulness at the cross, and all who are in Him by faith in Him receive it. In the end, at the judgment seat, this verdict will be proven to be true because of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in us.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Mator</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2841</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Mator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2841</guid>
		<description>I agree with Bob that N.T. Wright is hard to follow. And I too have not felt particularly compelled to devote my time to reading all of his work to unravel his confusing pronouncements. Which is to say, I think I don&#039;t like where Wright is going, but I&#039;m not entirely sure where Wright thinks he is going. Cloudy communication often indicates a cloudy mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Bob that N.T. Wright is hard to follow. And I too have not felt particularly compelled to devote my time to reading all of his work to unravel his confusing pronouncements. Which is to say, I think I don&#8217;t like where Wright is going, but I&#8217;m not entirely sure where Wright thinks he is going. Cloudy communication often indicates a cloudy mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Sacamento</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2831</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Sacamento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2831</guid>
		<description>Read the article.  Preach on!

If I can ask tangentially, I really don&#039;t have a clue as to what N.T. Wright is about.  His writing strikes me as the sort that you can&#039;t really get a handle on without diving in and reading the whole thing.  And I just don&#039;t have the time.  All summaries I have heard of him leave me clueless as to what he is saying.  Would it be possible for someone brighter and more informed than I to put together a sort of &quot;four spritual laws&quot;-type summary of what he is saying about justification?  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read the article.  Preach on!</p>
<p>If I can ask tangentially, I really don&#8217;t have a clue as to what N.T. Wright is about.  His writing strikes me as the sort that you can&#8217;t really get a handle on without diving in and reading the whole thing.  And I just don&#8217;t have the time.  All summaries I have heard of him leave me clueless as to what he is saying.  Would it be possible for someone brighter and more informed than I to put together a sort of &#8220;four spritual laws&#8221;-type summary of what he is saying about justification?  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2808</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2808</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Dale Coulter&lt;/b&gt;:  &quot;&lt;i&gt;There was not even an agreed doctrine of justification among the first generation of Protestant Reformers.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Yikes!  I am comforted however by Anthony Mator&#039;s comment:  &quot;Justification is God’s work. Obedience is ours.&quot;

FWIW, here&#039;s what I posted over at Rev. DeYoung&#039;s blog:

&quot;C. Michael Patton of the Parchment and Pen blog wrote this:

“I believe that faith alone saves a person, &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; an adherence to the belief in salvation by faith alone. Having said this, I believe that it is a primary part of the discharge of the Gospel to proclaim strongly and loudly that salvation is by faith alone. Those who deny such are in great danger in many ways. Paul exhorted the Galatians not to fall back into a worthless system of works. The means by which they were saved (faith) is also the means by which they are kept (faith). When man attempts to add anything to the faith, they have denied the Gospel by which they were saved. This is tragic.”

I.e., belief in Sola Fide is essential for (protestant) orthodoxy, but beliefe in Sola Fide is not essential for salvation.

In this post by Steve Scott titled “Protestantism’s False Gospel”:

“Protestantism’s false gospel: Justification by faith alone.

Okay, now I’ve got some splainin’ to do, as Ricky Ricardo would say. At the center of the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. But some Protestants make such a big deal out of the doctrine of justification by faith alone that they would substitute this doctrine and place it at the center of the gospel. The result? One is justified by their belief in the doctrine of justification by faith alone rather than by their faith in Christ, alone. See the difference? Belief in the doctrine is superior to belief in Christ.

I believe we are justified by faith in Christ. But this can be true without having a deep understanding of the doctrine of justification by faith alone as Protestant theologians have hashed it out. When we place upon others the burden of understanding something the same way we do, there is a tendency to discount their faith. The doctrine becomes our point of superiority. Our understanding of a doctrine becomes the object of our faith, rather than Christ as the object of our faith. I’m sure there will be many on Judgment Day who knew the doctrine of justification by faith inside and out, and believed it, but who really didn’t have faith in Christ. I hope that’s not true for you or me.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Dale Coulter</b>:  &#8220;<i>There was not even an agreed doctrine of justification among the first generation of Protestant Reformers.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Yikes!  I am comforted however by Anthony Mator&#8217;s comment:  &#8220;Justification is God’s work. Obedience is ours.&#8221;</p>
<p>FWIW, here&#8217;s what I posted over at Rev. DeYoung&#8217;s blog:</p>
<p>&#8220;C. Michael Patton of the Parchment and Pen blog wrote this:</p>
<p>“I believe that faith alone saves a person, <b>not</b> an adherence to the belief in salvation by faith alone. Having said this, I believe that it is a primary part of the discharge of the Gospel to proclaim strongly and loudly that salvation is by faith alone. Those who deny such are in great danger in many ways. Paul exhorted the Galatians not to fall back into a worthless system of works. The means by which they were saved (faith) is also the means by which they are kept (faith). When man attempts to add anything to the faith, they have denied the Gospel by which they were saved. This is tragic.”</p>
<p>I.e., belief in Sola Fide is essential for (protestant) orthodoxy, but beliefe in Sola Fide is not essential for salvation.</p>
<p>In this post by Steve Scott titled “Protestantism’s False Gospel”:</p>
<p>“Protestantism’s false gospel: Justification by faith alone.</p>
<p>Okay, now I’ve got some splainin’ to do, as Ricky Ricardo would say. At the center of the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. But some Protestants make such a big deal out of the doctrine of justification by faith alone that they would substitute this doctrine and place it at the center of the gospel. The result? One is justified by their belief in the doctrine of justification by faith alone rather than by their faith in Christ, alone. See the difference? Belief in the doctrine is superior to belief in Christ.</p>
<p>I believe we are justified by faith in Christ. But this can be true without having a deep understanding of the doctrine of justification by faith alone as Protestant theologians have hashed it out. When we place upon others the burden of understanding something the same way we do, there is a tendency to discount their faith. The doctrine becomes our point of superiority. Our understanding of a doctrine becomes the object of our faith, rather than Christ as the object of our faith. I’m sure there will be many on Judgment Day who knew the doctrine of justification by faith inside and out, and believed it, but who really didn’t have faith in Christ. I hope that’s not true for you or me.”</p>
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		<title>By: The Gospel and Proper Political Engagement: Reflections on the Atonement and Christendom &#187; Evangel &#124; A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2807</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gospel and Proper Political Engagement: Reflections on the Atonement and Christendom &#187; Evangel &#124; A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 11:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2807</guid>
		<description>[...] by Chapter on Sarah Palin (193)karen marie: While an excellent chief executive in Alaska Have... Justification: Here I Stand (3)Anthony Mator: Now that you&#8217;ve finished your attempt to justify your view on... The Good [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Chapter on Sarah Palin (193)karen marie: While an excellent chief executive in Alaska Have&#8230; Justification: Here I Stand (3)Anthony Mator: Now that you&#8217;ve finished your attempt to justify your view on&#8230; The Good [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Mator</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2803</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Mator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2803</guid>
		<description>Now that you&#039;ve finished your attempt to justify your view on justification, I hope I am justified in adding my two-cents, which is simply:

Justification is God&#039;s work. Obedience is ours. 

For me, the teaching of Christ is that simple. And there&#039;s not even a need to get into squabbles over free will and predestination, because whichever way you look at it, we still have a responsibility to obey, and we obey knowing that we are justified by God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that you&#8217;ve finished your attempt to justify your view on justification, I hope I am justified in adding my two-cents, which is simply:</p>
<p>Justification is God&#8217;s work. Obedience is ours. </p>
<p>For me, the teaching of Christ is that simple. And there&#8217;s not even a need to get into squabbles over free will and predestination, because whichever way you look at it, we still have a responsibility to obey, and we obey knowing that we are justified by God.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale Coulter</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2798</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Coulter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2798</guid>
		<description>I hate to bust the bubble here on justification, but it&#039;s very clear that you are Reformed. The statement about a cursory look at Church History leaves out most of what happened. It certainly leaves out the entire holiness movement and much of Methodism. Truth be told, while the holiness folk make up a large percentage of Evangelicalism, their storyline is always conveniently forgotten by Reformed thinkers. From Wesley to Finney to Palmer and on, the emphasis has never really been on justification--and that goes for most Pentecostals of which I am one. 

There was not even an agreed doctrine of justification among the first generation of Protestant Reformers. Just compare Zwingli, Bucer, Melanchthon, Luther and Oecolampadius and the differences will emerge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to bust the bubble here on justification, but it&#8217;s very clear that you are Reformed. The statement about a cursory look at Church History leaves out most of what happened. It certainly leaves out the entire holiness movement and much of Methodism. Truth be told, while the holiness folk make up a large percentage of Evangelicalism, their storyline is always conveniently forgotten by Reformed thinkers. From Wesley to Finney to Palmer and on, the emphasis has never really been on justification&#8211;and that goes for most Pentecostals of which I am one. </p>
<p>There was not even an agreed doctrine of justification among the first generation of Protestant Reformers. Just compare Zwingli, Bucer, Melanchthon, Luther and Oecolampadius and the differences will emerge.</p>
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		<title>By: Collin Brendemuehl</title>
		<link>http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/11/justification-here-i-stand/#comment-2795</link>
		<dc:creator>Collin Brendemuehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/?p=1754#comment-2795</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Much of the impotence of American churches is tied to a profound ignorance and apathy about justification.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Excellent.  Let&#039;s add a mis-founded
(is that a word?) assurance of justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Much of the impotence of American churches is tied to a profound ignorance and apathy about justification.</p></blockquote>
<p>Excellent.  Let&#8217;s add a mis-founded<br />
(is that a word?) assurance of justification.</p>
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