Got stuff to do the rest of the day and not likely to be back until bed-time. One last stir of the ol’ pot here and I’m off:
In spite of my poking his eye for being jaded, I think Joe Carter is onto something.
And here’s my one-liner for the discussion so far: I see politics (not necessarily Government, but what we do as politics) as overt legalism, which is a minimalistic approach to the trouble in this world, no matter how many whirligigs you put on it; the Gospel is greater than Law and is therefore a comprehensive approach to all the trouble in the world.
And when I say it that way, I sound more like Doug Wilson that I probably want to let on. And no I didn’t baptize any babies.
October 22nd, 2009 | 6:51 pm | #1
Frank, I tried to respond to you on the previous thread, but kept getting kicked off. Apart from the baby thing, I think we are pretty close. Worried yet?
I don’t want to pass laws in order to get our way. I want to get our way so that we can pass laws. And of course the only way to get our way is to let God be wiser than men, and tell us that His folly will overthrow the wisdom of the world. I want to avoid two errors. The first is that of trying to overthrow the wisdom of the world by means of the wisdom of the world. The second is the error of thinking that God’s wisdom won’t actually overthrow anything at all, except down in our hearts. Where? Down in our hearts. Where? . . .
October 22nd, 2009 | 7:24 pm | #2
One thing that should be noted in this discussion about politics and the gospel is that the the gospel frees us from having to trust in some ideology or politician’s idea of utopia. I look upon some people, even some Christians, who find so much hope in the worldly success of some elected (or hoping to be) leader that they suffer disappointment, loss, and even despair when they lose. One of the biggest impacts of the gospel on my life was that it freed me from such hopelessness. Jesus really IS Lord and is able to deliver THE “utopia” in the form of his kingdom.
That being said there is no way for someone who has entered the kingdom of God to NOT have any opinion about how the kingdoms of this world operate. In most contexts, the kingdoms of this world don’t care about those opinions, but lo and behold we live in America and in America we have a voice. Our opinion counts. So how do those intersect? It’s an open-ended question in a lot of ways, and why hasn’t David K answered? That guy has the best book I’ve ever read on the subject!
October 22nd, 2009 | 10:06 pm | #3
All I have to say (and this is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, so please feel more than welcome to not publish this at all) is that this is definitely the most legit blog I have ever stumbled across in my (albeit limited) experience in the blogsphere. A site where theologically informed people with differing opinions on finer points openly debate and disagree with one another, and even get edgy with one another, yet avoid being jerks to each other and actually try to understand each other, is just an incredible concept. Whoever it was that came up with this idea, I cannot thank you enough. Now I definitely know where to come for theological and intellectual stimulation, as well as incessant gospel-preaching. Thank y’all for your commitment first to Christ and the Gospel, and then to the sanctification and edification of the Church.
October 22nd, 2009 | 10:13 pm | #4
[...] threat can bind you if you hold the key to eternal life? This last notion has implications for the ongoing discussions of Christian life in a largely secular democratic political [...]
October 23rd, 2009 | 6:03 am | #5
Oh-oh. Party’s over. The BHT crew has found this blog.
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Hi Adam. :-)
October 23rd, 2009 | 6:11 am | #6
Doug –
I see your joy-joy-joy-joy and raise this-little-light-of-mine.
So riddle me this: when does a Christian stop being a Christian and start being an idolater to the political system? See: I think that while Joe’s disillusionment with the Religious Right is a good thing, we have a very serious problem in Evangelidom that people want, as I said previously, to be like all the other nations.
I don’t know that you see it that way. kindly ‘Splain it to me.
:-)
October 23rd, 2009 | 6:14 am | #7
III –
Well, it is only the first week, and my lynch mob hasn’t followed me over here yet to accuse me of everything from false credentials to bad hair — although I am glad we got the anti-catholicism on the table right away. That one always turns out well.
October 23rd, 2009 | 5:55 pm | #8
Frank, I think that with regard to anything that is lawful in itself (e.g. political involvement), questions of idolatry or worldliness (which is what this entire discussion is actually about) are questions that have to be answered at the level of motive or heart intent. In other words, one man could be an elected official and spend most of his waking hours “doing politics” and not be worldly in his assumptions about it, while another person only thinks about politics during the election cycles, but does so in a high panic, and does so in a worldly way.
This moving target element is also why it is easy for people to talk past each other in these discussions — because the trip wire (that we all know is there) is found in different places in different hearts.
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